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Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

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Auzor
Posts: 46

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#31 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:25 am

afaik, Zealot does not have a group cleanse (outside of morals).
So that is 1/3rd healers without.
Shaman as cleanser: can't cleanse: AM, BW, Engineer DoT's/Debuffs. That's a lot of ranged order that can't be cleansed. DoK is supposedly the 'melee' healer.

In addition, for Shaman, the cleanse is the highest tactic. It should be career then...
if it's mandatory to counter a 3-point tactic; yet not helping vs most of the order ranged DPS.

Also note: you can't choose which DoT you cleanse.

------------------------------------

I can show screenshots with 4 SW in top 6 damage; 3 in top 5 etc.

Let's compare some 'first in the tree' tactics between DPS classes.
Magus: Flickering Red Fire & Violet Fire will hit 1 target within 15 feet (1 extra target, & within less range). Pandemonium will re-apply 50% of the time. (unreliable = I don't take). and a turret AP regen.

Sorceress:
25% chance for action point regen with tree abilities.
Word of pain buff... single target.
Dark Magic Boom AoE, self-centered.

SH actually has some interesting ones.

Marauder: stat boosts tied to a specific mutation.

Other career DPS similar tactics, that make attacks hit other targets, have limitations on number of targets, AND reduce the base damage.

If we compare to WH, Judgement: top ability is 'Burn away lies'.
In order to deal full damage, WH needs:
5 accusation stacks;
Be behind the target.
it is a melee ability: short range.
It is single-target.
And this DoT is liable to be cleansed in 1 go afaik.
If so, can't just re-apply: 10s cd.

Broadhead arrow:
Being instant, means random interrupts don't work; at all.
No losing of LoS.
Pandemonium, does have a cast time; and can only be used on the move with flamer stacks.

Shift part of BHA's damage to Flame Arrow;
and make both have a cast time of 1s. Same DPS, but liable to random interrupts... and Flame Arrow's dot can be cleansed in 1 go.
Flame Arrow also can only be used in Skirmish Stance, and has a shorter duration (more frequent application needed).

Split arrows tactic, should still be higher in the tree.
That would somewhat reduce the damage this does to mid-tier scenario's.
Even so, I still think Split Arrows tactic may necessitate an additional downside;



Note also that Magus (/Engineer) don't have a -50% healing ability.

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Justina
Posts: 35

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#32 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:42 am

Auzor wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:25 am
Shift part of BHA's damage to Flame Arrow;
and make both have a cast time of 1s. Same DPS, but liable to random interrupts... and Flame Arrow's dot can be cleansed in 1 go.
Flame Arrow also can only be used in Skirmish Stance, and has a shorter duration (more frequent application needed).

Split arrows tactic, should still be higher in the tree.
That would somewhat reduce the damage this does to mid-tier scenario's.
Even so, I still think Split Arrows tactic may necessitate an additional downside;
Compare BHA to melee aoe. BHA with split arrow has 65ft range and you have to be in squishy skirmish stance. Melee aoe has 40ft range with medium armor, more life, more parry/disrupt/doge and melee is always instant. Melees do far more damage in 3 global cooldowns than a SW with 3x putting BHA on you.

Putting the tactic higher in the tree wouldn't change a thing. All skirmish SW go pretty much full skirmish. The BHA SW is a one trick pony. The split arrow thing is good in fort situations and other tight spaces but that's it. As BHA SW you are basically losing all single target pressure. Compare that to a SH. They have tons of single target pressure with their skirmish build and they have their aoe damage in the squig armor build. They are however also losing single target pressure in their aoe build.

Changing split arrow / BHA would break the SW even more. You want SWs without damage? Not gonna happen.

BeautfulToad
Posts: 545

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#33 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:47 am

If it is infinitely stackable, that must be a mistake. Is any other ability like this?

I dont think any melee dps has an infinitely stackable dot, and they have the disadvantage of being easily targetable by everyone

User avatar
Cultist
Posts: 89

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#34 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:16 am

Justina wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:42 am
Changing split arrow / BHA would break the SW even more. You want SWs without damage? Not gonna happen.
We don't want to see 7+ x BHA3 stacks on our buffhead. Is that so hard to understand?

It is ridicously broken.

Justina
Posts: 35

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#35 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:47 am

Cultist wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:16 am
Justina wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:42 am
Changing split arrow / BHA would break the SW even more. You want SWs without damage? Not gonna happen.
We don't want to see 7+ x BHA3 stacks on our buffhead. Is that so hard to understand?

It is ridicously broken.
How is that different from 7+ SHs or Choppas or Maras or Slayers or WLs jumping in and doing aoe damage? The BHA damage on armored targets is very low, even if stacked three times. The BHA damage on guarded targets is even lower.

I know there is a order wb that is running tons of SWs. What would happen if you nerf SWs again? They would do the same with another class... Do you think that 7 engis or 7 magi would be less annoying? It would be exactly the same.

BeautfulToad
Posts: 545

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#36 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:32 am

Justina wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:47 am
How is that different from 7+ SHs or Choppas or Maras or Slayers or WLs jumping in and doing aoe damage? The BHA damage on armored targets is very low, even if stacked three times. The BHA damage on guarded targets is even lower.
Just to be clear, when I said that BHA should not be infinitely stackable, I am not saying it shouldn't be stackable. Three seems normal on a lot of these types of attacks.

If capping the stacking to something like three nerfs SW into oblivion, some other SW ability needs a buff to compensate. If any class has to spam the same ability over and over to be competitive, something is wrong. Even SnB tanks and healers don't spam the same ability over and over again.

User avatar
Deviance01
Posts: 9

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#37 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:40 am

Justina wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:47 am
Cultist wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:16 am
Justina wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:42 am
Changing split arrow / BHA would break the SW even more. You want SWs without damage? Not gonna happen.
We don't want to see 7+ x BHA3 stacks on our buffhead. Is that so hard to understand?

It is ridicously broken.
How is that different from 7+ SHs or Choppas or Maras or Slayers or WLs jumping in and doing aoe damage? The BHA damage on armored targets is very low, even if stacked three times. The BHA damage on guarded targets is even lower.

I know there is a order wb that is running tons of SWs. What would happen if you nerf SWs again? They would do the same with another class... Do you think that 7 engis or 7 magi would be less annoying? It would be exactly the same.
Are you seriously implying that being melee on red is the same with being ranged/semi-ranged on a risk vs reward scale?
A dot that stacks faster than can be cleansed ,aoe and x3 that can be applied from afar should not be that strong ,should not be AOE at all actually.

No offence but comparing the grenade damage and magus aoe dot with the arrow shows how little you know of the game or how biased you are (or both).
This is not Call of Duty where kids would defend their new op weapon and few knows about it.
This is a 10+ yo game with the same 1.500 people playing (most) both sides in a community that knows each other well.
We know how op it is when its being discussed in our Order wbs under giggles. We know how op it is when you are healing and the targets that are stacked need help or they dead soon, and you end up cleansingand not healing others. On a fort door. Spam cleanse....right.
We dont do the same with Magus or Engi dots , people actually stand in them to gain morals ... so please..

User avatar
zarlemagne
Posts: 28

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#38 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:04 pm

Justina wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:47 am
Cultist wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:16 am
Justina wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:42 am
Changing split arrow / BHA would break the SW even more. You want SWs without damage? Not gonna happen.
We don't want to see 7+ x BHA3 stacks on our buffhead. Is that so hard to understand?

It is ridicously broken.
How is that different from 7+ SHs or Choppas or Maras or Slayers or WLs jumping in and doing aoe damage? The BHA damage on armored targets is very low, even if stacked three times. The BHA damage on guarded targets is even lower.

I know there is a order wb that is running tons of SWs. What would happen if you nerf SWs again? They would do the same with another class... Do you think that 7 engis or 7 magi would be less annoying? It would be exactly the same.
If BHA is so rubbish i have a suggestion

Lets make Sorc's Great again
i.e. Take GoN (it's always been a bit underpowered given it's a 2 sec cast tbh) and do the following:
1. Make it Instant cast (It's currently 2s) - this will also reduce the damage as it's based on a 2sec cast atm
2. Make it 3x stackable (per Sorc) using the Frozen Fury or Chilling Gusts tactics

Frozen fury has been rubbish since they removed the group component but is a base tactic, so Chilling Gusts could be used as it's 11 points into a tree GoN is in.

If this is done I give a week before people whine it's OP

Oh as an after thought.
GoN is an Explosive AoE (it affects one person and "explodes" to damage people around that person) so only 1 person will only need to be cleansed.
BHA hits 'X' number of people who all need to be cleansed.

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Parallell86
Posts: 118

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#39 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:38 pm

Neowinger wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:33 pm
detaunt the SW
All of them? WUT?

User avatar
Meliannia
Posts: 129

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#40 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:49 pm

Justina wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:36 am


What is really broken in this game is the amount of times you are getting pulled by maras and choppas while order has not really working pull at all. Lots of free kills for destro. We can nerf broadhead when you nerf that pull crap too.

pulled through walls, pulled through doors, pulled through ceilings into floor below, even pulled across the river in eataine from one shore to opposite shore
guaranteed one order victim insta kill per 30 secs .

Give Slayer mobile melee pull "Get To da Ginga."
Give White Lion mobile melee pull "Come to the Cat"

then by all means lets talk about Broadhead.

how long did it take us to have a convo about the blatantly OP rSH after the buffed from 2/10 to 10/10 patch? 5 months and 7 threads?
You got 5months and 6 more threads to go, keep at it.....

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