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starness88 wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 12:24 am
50% block with channeling is a good ability but SM has passive defense buff so it's even. And above of all of this, SM don't have to deal with rampage.
And this spell does not bring anythin to my group. And making an organised wb is about to use a synergy. BO don't bring synergy anymore.
You can't take all the spell and tactic of your mastery trees. You have to do choice. ATM no choice is worth to bring.
It's not even close, SM has 50-60% block in decent gear but BO can have 90% or higher. It does a lot to support your group when you can utilise the guard mechanic to your favour in warband activity. If you still don't think BO's bring synergy any more just read over my previous points. If you think Waaagh! isn't worth using because you have based the entire class on one tactic, try playing around with We'z Bigger, it can be a strong ability when used correctly.
I don't think a shortage of mastery points is an issue. You have enough, even at higher renown.
Side note: SM's do have their own channel to mirror the BO's that can give us 100% parry (200% with a tactic) but it's restricted to 2H, phasing out our ST punt and AoE interrupt. So it's a rare sight to see one defensively built floating around.
You hard overestimate the channeling, it's good, it's true i won't lie. But trust me it, test it and you will that it doesn't bring anything for your mate. When you do this you do nothing else and you snare yourself. But it's still situational, it's not trash.
And you can't say BO has 90% block like it's permanent or passive and SM has only 60%, cause it's situationnal, it's in a moment in a fight. And SM bring far more mitigation to his group. It's not even comparable, we don't have his aoe
break cast, we don't have aoe 20% reduce damage (i know you will tell we reduce magic damage but again, it's useless in a melee meta), that's why i would have less personnal buff ability if i can have group ability.
No one will say : "I have my 3-4 choosen, i have no tank with personnal +50% block on channeling i need BO". The fun part is most order keyboard warriors say "It was no brain, now you are not a waaagh bot anymore", the fact is without the waaagh our gameplay will just be spam aoe to the death. It's more no brain than it was.
I've tested defensive channels on all tanks that have one, it's an exceptional ability if you understand how to make best use of the guard system. The longer you are alive and not taking damage, the longer your guard has theoretically double their health and gets all the focus heals from your party/warband. The best part about a BO is that you can perform your basic tank role as a sub rr40 in city as well as most order tanks in invader.
Just because you don't have Raking Talons or an AoE interrupt, doesn't make SM's vastly superior. A BO's ability to absorb greater amounts of damage and still build morale faster than order tanks is why they excel in protection scores in cities. An SM has to use Raking Talons consistently on the MA of a blob to make best use of the tactic. Which they can't consistently because they take more damage in the blob than a BO and like the BO it's not an ability that is used every rotation either.
If you want to test how strong defensive channels are, guard a dps champ in stage 3 and as it's being focused don't use block channel and see how faster you drop compared to using it. It's so important that there's a BO or at least a BG in groups that need a guard for their VIP dps. A party's entire survivability can rest solely on you channelling at the right moments in a fight. Even though it's hard to tell. Just ask your healers.
Knight 8x - IB 8x - SM 8x / Chosen 3x - BO 4x - BG 5x
Imho, comparing BO to SM in this thread is bad idea and irrelevant to the topic, cause BOs will have to compete for place in warband with Destro tanks, not Order. Can we discuss what unique and valuable utility BO, as he is right now, can bring to warband? I can start - absorbs and snares. We'z bigger is quite unique as it provides CC immunity on demand but short duration makes it hardly usable. Either it's duration or damage reduction has to be buffed to be relevant.
It's not even close, SM has 50-60% block in decent gear but BO can have 90% or higher. It does a lot to support your group when you can utilise the guard mechanic to your favour in warband activity. If you still don't think BO's bring synergy any more just read over my previous points. If you think Waaagh! isn't worth using because you have based the entire class on one tactic, try playing around with We'z Bigger, it can be a strong ability when used correctly.
I don't think a shortage of mastery points is an issue. You have enough, even at higher renown.
Side note: SM's do have their own channel to mirror the BO's that can give us 100% parry (200% with a tactic) but it's restricted to 2H, phasing out our ST punt and AoE interrupt. So it's a rare sight to see one defensively built floating around.
You hard overestimate the channeling, it's good, it's true i won't lie. But trust me it, test it and you will that it doesn't bring anything for your mate. When you do this you do nothing else and you snare yourself. But it's still situational, it's not trash.
And you can't say BO has 90% block like it's permanent or passive and SM has only 60%, cause it's situationnal, it's in a moment in a fight. And SM bring far more mitigation to his group. It's not even comparable, we don't have his aoe
break cast, we don't have aoe 20% reduce damage (i know you will tell we reduce magic damage but again, it's useless in a melee meta), that's why i would have less personnal buff ability if i can have group ability.
No one will say : "I have my 3-4 choosen, i have no tank with personnal +50% block on channeling i need BO". The fun part is most order keyboard warriors say "It was no brain, now you are not a waaagh bot anymore", the fact is without the waaagh our gameplay will just be spam aoe to the death. It's more no brain than it was.
I've tested defensive channels on all tanks that have one, it's an exceptional ability if you understand how to make best use of the guard system. The longer you are alive and not taking damage, the longer your guard has theoretically double their health and gets all the focus heals from your party/warband. The best part about a BO is that you can perform your basic tank role as a sub rr40 in city as well as most order tanks in invader.
Just because you don't have Raking Talons or an AoE interrupt, doesn't make SM's vastly superior. A BO's ability to absorb greater amounts of damage and still build morale faster than order tanks is why they excel in protection scores in cities. An SM has to use Raking Talons consistently on the MA of a blob to make best use of the tactic. Which they can't consistently because they take more damage in the blob than a BO and like the BO it's not an ability that is used every rotation either.
If you want to test how strong defensive channels are, guard a dps champ in stage 3 and as it's being focused don't use block channel and see how faster you drop compared to using it. It's so important that there's a BO or at least a BG in groups that need a guard for their VIP dps. A party's entire survivability can rest solely on you channelling at the right moments in a fight. Even though it's hard to tell. Just ask your healers.
It's fun cause you talk about SM tools like it is really hard to play cause you have to hit and in the other side like black ork has to press one button to solve all problem. It's not true, it's the same all tank in both side (except that order doesn't deal with rampage). I mean in both side with all tank you have to take risk to do what you have to do. If i want to shatter a rampage, i have to approach the melee ball and maybe it mean leave my guard for some second, that's how it work in both side and that's ok. It's same if you want to buff or use -20% magic damage for 4sec, you have to hit someone and it should not be parry or block and that's ok, it's how it work.
You have to know, in WB, i know how to move, i know how to place my self, if my guard is focus, i want to help, i don't want to save me with my channeling, cause i won't die with my full defensive sov. I want to counter their dps and reduce the damage take. That's what i call bring something to my group. And the aoe -20% + the 2x cast/channel break of SM is HUGE kit. Far stronger than block channel.
But you are right, it's a nice abilty, i won't say it's trash or useless, it's just not that strong as you say, it's fine how it is. It will help in some situation but it doesn't break the game and it's still not THE THING we need in wb.
You hard overestimate the channeling, it's good, it's true i won't lie. But trust me it, test it and you will that it doesn't bring anything for your mate. When you do this you do nothing else and you snare yourself. But it's still situational, it's not trash.
And you can't say BO has 90% block like it's permanent or passive and SM has only 60%, cause it's situationnal, it's in a moment in a fight. And SM bring far more mitigation to his group. It's not even comparable, we don't have his aoe
break cast, we don't have aoe 20% reduce damage (i know you will tell we reduce magic damage but again, it's useless in a melee meta), that's why i would have less personnal buff ability if i can have group ability.
No one will say : "I have my 3-4 choosen, i have no tank with personnal +50% block on channeling i need BO". The fun part is most order keyboard warriors say "It was no brain, now you are not a waaagh bot anymore", the fact is without the waaagh our gameplay will just be spam aoe to the death. It's more no brain than it was.
I've tested defensive channels on all tanks that have one, it's an exceptional ability if you understand how to make best use of the guard system. The longer you are alive and not taking damage, the longer your guard has theoretically double their health and gets all the focus heals from your party/warband. The best part about a BO is that you can perform your basic tank role as a sub rr40 in city as well as most order tanks in invader.
Just because you don't have Raking Talons or an AoE interrupt, doesn't make SM's vastly superior. A BO's ability to absorb greater amounts of damage and still build morale faster than order tanks is why they excel in protection scores in cities. An SM has to use Raking Talons consistently on the MA of a blob to make best use of the tactic. Which they can't consistently because they take more damage in the blob than a BO and like the BO it's not an ability that is used every rotation either.
If you want to test how strong defensive channels are, guard a dps champ in stage 3 and as it's being focused don't use block channel and see how faster you drop compared to using it. It's so important that there's a BO or at least a BG in groups that need a guard for their VIP dps. A party's entire survivability can rest solely on you channelling at the right moments in a fight. Even though it's hard to tell. Just ask your healers.
It's fun cause you talk about SM tools like it is really hard to play cause you have to hit and in the other side like black ork has to press one button to solve all problem. It's not true, it's the same all tank in both side (except that order doesn't deal with rampage). I mean in both side with all tank you have to take risk to do what you have to do. If i want to shatter a rampage, i have to approach the melee ball and maybe it mean leave my guard for some second, that's how it work in both side and that's ok. It's same if you want to buff or use -20% magic damage for 4sec, you have to hit someone and it should not be parry or block and that's ok, it's how it work.
You have to know, in WB, i know how to move, i know how to place my self, if my guard is focus, i want to help, i don't want to save me with my channeling, cause i won't die with my full defensive sov. I want to counter their dps and reduce the damage take. That's what i call bring something to my group. And the aoe -20% + the 2x cast/channel break of SM is HUGE kit. Far stronger than block channel.
But you are right, it's a nice abilty, i won't say it's trash or useless, it's just not that strong as you say, it's fine how it is. It will help in some situation but it doesn't break the game and it's still not THE THING we need in wb.
I've explained the uptime issue with Raking Talons and it gets worse the larger the battles are, especially against free casting Sorc's and Magus' out of our range. I personally wouldn't run it in ORvR unless asked to. It's too exclusive towards particular situations where we usually use it to control smaller scale blobs of destro.
I've already pointed out a potential issue about having two AoE interrupts to the team, even though one is a small 15ft range and the other a 30ft straight line, both most likely defendable. The change does mean one less 4 second silence for destro casters to worry about. And it might help boost the much needed population of SM's since they are the least played tank in the game, but that's for all of us to test over time.
Knight 8x - IB 8x - SM 8x / Chosen 3x - BO 4x - BG 5x
i thought the removal of silence was presented as a buff. i'm sure many chosen would like to see it gone on tzeentch's reflection and replaced with an extra 5 secs or something. incidental hard cc is never good
as for the low pop of SMs it's just frustrating to play defensively due to the annoyingly low uptime of defensive abilities, so anyone who wants a def tank is just gonna pick anything else after lvl 25. some ppl prefer off tanks, some will stick it out, but that's still a massive percentage of tank players who just aren't gonna touch the class. i agree raking talons is one of those wet dream tactics but then you see the 4 sec and just why
tazdingo wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 11:42 am
i agree raking talons is one of those wet dream tactics but then you see the 4 sec and just why
I just use this arguement cause many order are trying to tell us how strong black orc is by saying that we can reduce magic damage by 20% for 4 sec, i just say SM can do the same for all type of damage.
Come on, if you play both you know SM one is usually better in city and BO one is usually better in oRvR.
It's not like one is 100% better than the other.
Also, even if BO is now the worst tank in the game /cry (it is actually on par with BG and IB as SnB but let's pretend it is not), well, one has to be the worst right ?
Cause it's usually very hard to balance things to be exactly equal.
And BO was the best for how long ? 3+ years ?
Maybe another tank can be the best for some time.
PS : I played my BO most of the weekend, it's still destro most "protective" tank.
tazdingo wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 11:42 am
i agree raking talons is one of those wet dream tactics but then you see the 4 sec and just why
I just use this arguement cause many order are trying to tell us how strong black orc is by saying that we can reduce magic damage by 20% for 4 sec, i just say SM can do the same for all type of damage.
BO only have a pdps debuff ST with 50% uptime. Is only noticeable bc Slayers are so OP
(The magic 4s reduction has been bugged for years AFIK)
tazdingo wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 11:42 am
i agree raking talons is one of those wet dream tactics but then you see the 4 sec and just why
I just use this arguement cause many order are trying to tell us how strong black orc is by saying that we can reduce magic damage by 20% for 4 sec, i just say SM can do the same for all type of damage.
BO only have a pdps debuff ST with 50% uptime. Is only noticeable bc Slayers are so OP
(The magic 4s reduction has been bugged for years AFIK)
Are you serious? Does the 20% magic dmg reduction for 4 seconds not even work!!!???
