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[WH] A Witch Hunter Patch Note

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jughurta69
Posts: 113

Re: [WH] A Witch Hunter Patch Note

Post#11 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:00 am

Naelar wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:13 am Encouraging WH parties? There are plenty of those roaming in the lakes.

no interest in increasing WH / WE capabilities, due to current mindset

I am WH, I play solo 99% of my time and never in a WH party


This mentality kills any possibility of reflection on the class.

what reasons developers would spend time rethinking a class that only plays killing in excess 2,3,4,5,6 vs 1 (ditto for WE)

if you want to play in warband change class, if you want dps in aoe the same or rethink to find the effects (and it works very well)

Otherwise don't complain

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Hulgore
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Re: [WH] A Witch Hunter Patch Note

Post#12 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:14 am

Hugatsaga wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:09 am If WH gets buffs because it holds a pistol in off hand i think its fair to to give WE some thematical buffs also as well. I suggest that witch elves get ability to turn enemy character permanently into some kind of an animal (such as newt, frog or sheep). I mean they are WITCH elves right? This polymorph should count as a snare, disarm and silence and wounds debuff with infinite duration.
That pistol advantage used to be set into the game when WE had only 5ft range on their abilities, now they overall have more range than a class with a pistol, and their throwing daggers can proc poison which is not the case with Snap Shot ability, so a skinny witch elf has actually more range damages than a pistol class, but yes, tell me i am the joke here

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Hulgore
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Re: [WH] A Witch Hunter Patch Note

Post#13 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:23 am

jughurta69 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:00 am
Naelar wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:13 am Encouraging WH parties? There are plenty of those roaming in the lakes.

no interest in increasing WH / WE capabilities, due to current mindset

I am WH, I play solo 99% of my time and never in a WH party


This mentality kills any possibility of reflection on the class.

what reasons developers would spend time rethinking a class that only plays killing in excess 2,3,4,5,6 vs 1 (ditto for WE)

if you want to play in warband change class, if you want dps in aoe the same or rethink to find the effects (and it works very well)

Otherwise don't complain
And who are you to say that the class should be forced to be played solo ? I like playing solo, I also like playing with people sometimes, I don't think its hard to understand, but suddenly people explain here that the class should remain unwanted everywhere because it is its nature (???) ; I proposed an addition of a few tactics to increase the versatility of the class, if you don't want to use them don't, if you want to do fort with people then you can use these, when the fort is done you go back solo, thats it

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Naelar
Posts: 296

Re: [WH] A Witch Hunter Patch Note

Post#14 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:43 am

The point is, no one needs to do anything to encourage WH/(or WE) groups. I see plenty of them in the lakes as it is. Not necessarily a full 6, but usually at least 3. Rarely do i encounter one solo anymore, on either side.

Splentforcer
Posts: 2

Re: [WH] A Witch Hunter Patch Note

Post#15 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:49 am

My short reaction:

  • Pisto attack range

I would definitly agree with the pistol attack range
However it could feel super cheesy to pop that dragon gun on ennemie remparts every 10 seconds

  • AoEs

I feel that inquisition path could be a bit AoE centered for those who really feel it should rather than having one tactic to fix this? THis path being focused a lot on killing your target slowly but surely with all those dots and healing debuffs, the concept of you burning people is flavourly cool. However, in WBs I feel you will rarely either get the chance to survive this long or kill your target before a healer pops his stuff. I never tried to actively use Inquisition path, but just by reading the abilities, they do not sound that bad (FYI Seal of Destruction works on dragon gun).
Hence, if we ever have devs looking back at WH, create a mechanic of applying oil or vitrol to spread the DOTs.
Inquisition spec would become more of a control tool: if ennemies stay too packed, they might suffer some debuffs on health regain or something, but going this route, the WH may have to give up survivability or something else (burst damage mainly?).
and this is where I would put the AoE focused part.
However, one could argue that this is not relevent to the concept of the class itself (well burning villages after a failed investigation is quite fluff friendly...)
But I do not feel like WH desperatly need AoE to become relevant

  • Incognito proposition

Tis' true that being able to do some real guerilla stuff would be cool. But I feel an instant CD reset alongside with a huge casting time reduction would be a bit cheesy. We "sorta" already have this thanks to sanctified oil but this requires invesment in Judgement tree.
(note: incognito can last up to a full minute and 30 secs now).
However, the necessity to get a Killing Blow would incitate people to go full in and actually get rewarded for a risk. Given that a WH can actually survive 10 secs without taking a hit thanks to his defensive skills, it could actually work well!





My thought on the state of WH right now, what he may be lacking of,

Overall, I feel that WH is actually in a decent state right now.
The last changes back in March an December gave him some nice stufff.
Therefore, I would like to remind of a few relevant changes that were made in the recent past:
  • Burn armor is a good tool for larger scaled fights since you will debuff ennemies armor in a decent AoE and reduce the very tought defences of the Destro melee wrecking ball. --> good opener!
  • The relics seem to no longer be sharing the same cooldown, which is good, no longer will one have to choose between popping sigil of sigmar, shroud of magnus or sanctified oil and then pray for the next 60 secs.
FALSE RELICS STILL DO SHARE CDs
  • Incognito no longer has a duration, but will only lasts up to a minute and 30 secs, which is long enough imo.
But in general his kit is actually quite versatile and can be built in different ways.
It all boils down to how you build him and play the class. Personnaly, I will aim at making a more defensive build so that I can lead charges, improve morales and take a few blunts and hence why not kill one magic user. More defense at the expense of less burts damage but still good sustained damage.

But generally, WH depends a lot on his "active" defensive tools such as Repel Blasphemy, Shroud of magnus, t1 super parry and of course Sanctified oil. Surviving as a WH depends a lot on which tool you use against who.
Those tools can also allow a glass canon like WH to pop out of invisibility and quickly kill a ranged based ennemie or even a healer if certain skills such as Confess or Silence the Heretics is used at the right time.

Also, what WH cannot bring with AoE dps, he can make it up with utility. Stealth can be a good tool to disrupt stuff. For instance just having one WH constantly sneaking in a keep to attack the Oil user is annoying enough to distract the defenders (then jump down to safety!). YOu can use it to guard the rears in a relatively safe way (you will be noticed mostly if ennemies are too close to you). Scouting is a thing people! Stealth can also be used to guard your ranged allies and protect your healers should a flank or a Sov-geared WE pounce on them.
There is also morale with dragongun, but it would be a shame to boil down WH's utility only to this amazing skill.
But his utility could be improve, hence the propositions of OP.

Besides, from what I know stealth was not really meant to be impletemented to WH in the first place, but it is a nice survivability tool (declare anathema + incognito is a good reset combo)

Additionaly, now that I am hitting RR50, I can feel one of the main issue of WH: it is a very gear dependant class. I know understand why many people give up,
It seem to require a lot of grinding, because unless you are decently geared with some vanqui/invader mix or at the bare minimum Conq/dominator/beastlord, you will be a crispy chips.

Unrelated to discussion on the topic:
Spoiler:
but there is still a few changes that we could have, again this is just from an innocent player still learning his class to the fullest:

  • Snapshot: innate flat crit chance of 15%, on a crit snap shot builds one accusation and ignores armor, this effect cannot trigger more than once every 4 (or X) seconds
Spoiler:
STRONGER TWEAK: snap shot builds one accusation on crit and triggers bullets
I think we could use a small tweak on snap shot, the skill's intend is mostlyto prevent ennemies from running away, but to engage its another question.

The issue with WH (and maybe to some extend: WE) is the struggle to engage a target. Yes we quite have a large array of tools to escape, yet sometimes the how you get to a target can be tricky (like being pulled by that choppa's vaccum :D)

If snap shot would have a special crit property where it has a flat % of criting (cannot be improved by stats like strenght or renown) and if it crits the additional damage would be minimal (keep it at max 160 or smth snap shot damage is laughable anyway, because snap shot is not something you might use to finish ennemies with it anyway)
but maybe build one accusation. Making the accusation on a flat unmodifeable crit chance will make it less consistent but would still give you a way to prepare your engage (instead of sweating for 7 secs while you are under super parry effect just to build a few accusations :D)

Implementation difficulty:
Such change would require to set snapshot's property to behave like any accusation builder but will require that flat crit chance or another random way to trigger the special effect alongside the snare if the target is facing somewhere else.

Expected results:
Snap shot would help WHs to prepare for fights or maintain his accusations and improve the utility this skill provides.
  • Switching WH armor from light to medium
Maybe switching WH's armor to intermediate instead of light armor? I never played on live but from what I heard it was not really an issue
WH is fragile enough for a melee focused class
However: the same could be said for the WE and it would be unfair if WH alone receives such tweaks.
PLus: WH's defenses are heavely reliant on his defensive skills.
I think the concept was that WH was supposed to get in and out of a fight very fast before he gets focused,
But it is a bit unfair that almost every melee fighter can wear some proper protection.
I am uncertain about this one honestly, but I feel just improving the overall armor could really help incitating people to pick WH

Implementation difficulty:
This would require to recalculate ALL WH ARMOR

Expected results:
Slighty improve WH survivability to put him on par with other melee DpS (however: would be unfair toward WE that is also in light armor)

Being a growing WH myself, I had found an old reddit comment that put a lot of clarity on how you can actually survive as a WH (I will link it)
But to summerize my point
On the proposed changes:
  • good call on the additional distance for the gun abilities
  • AoE could be more centered on the inquisition tree and I doubt a single talent would solve this topic, but it remains a good call nonetheless (but I would slightly tune it down a bit)
  • Stealth should be rewarding given the high risk: good call on the possible tactic on stealth CD, however I would tune it down at first
WHat I would also propose:
  • Improve Snapshot'S utility by giving it an innate property to build up accusation
  • Tweak all of WH's gear from light armor to medium-lightish armor
  • Relics (Shroud of Magnus, Sanctified oil, Seal of Destruction) should not share the same CD or at least have reduced CD after one relic popped*
- WH is in a decent status actually, but this class is not the easiest to play. People also unfairly bash him (there are misconception, and many seem to forget that WH now has a big armor debuff). It requires a LOT of investment to make it work or shine with it.
Spoiler:
Last edited by Splentforcer on Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

sighy
Posts: 259

Re: [WH] A Witch Hunter Patch Note

Post#16 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:04 am

Hulgore wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:14 am
Hugatsaga wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:09 am If WH gets buffs because it holds a pistol in off hand i think its fair to to give WE some thematical buffs also as well. I suggest that witch elves get ability to turn enemy character permanently into some kind of an animal (such as newt, frog or sheep). I mean they are WITCH elves right? This polymorph should count as a snare, disarm and silence and wounds debuff with infinite duration.
That pistol advantage used to be set into the game when WE had only 5ft range on their abilities, now they overall have more range than a class with a pistol, and their throwing daggers can proc poison which is not the case with Snap Shot ability, so a skinny witch elf has actually more range damages than a pistol class, but yes, tell me i am the joke here
This dead horse is so beaten it's ready to become a hamburger...

There is a reason your mega powerful DoT has certain limitations. And for the record WE needs to be within 5ft to actually utilise what the powerful Frenzies do. Also your bullets are guaranteed to proc on Executions, which means they can be applied AoE with dragon gun(or on demand when most desired). While WE is dedicated to the shrine of RNG and limitted by ICDs.

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inoeth
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Re: [WH] A Witch Hunter Patch Note

Post#17 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:11 am

relics share the same cool down sadly and you want to spare it for santified oil making magnus shroud and seal of destruction basicly unuseable

Splentforcer
Posts: 2

Re: [WH] A Witch Hunter Patch Note

Post#18 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:24 am

inoeth wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:11 am relics share the same cool down sadly and you want to spare it for santified oil making magnus shroud and seal of destruction basicly unuseable
Bullocks, I just checked
I thought SIgil of SIgmar was a relic just like Shroud of magnus, my bad, I will update the post, thank you for noticing

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Hulgore
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Re: [WH] A Witch Hunter Patch Note

Post#19 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:04 pm

Thank you Splentforcer for your answer that's actually the very first to be insteresting to read

Atropik
Posts: 708

Re: [WH] A Witch Hunter Patch Note

Post#20 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:15 pm

Hulgore wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:14 am That pistol advantage used to be set into the game when WE had only 5ft range on their abilities, now they overall have more range than a class with a pistol, and their throwing daggers can proc poison which is not the case with Snap Shot ability, so a skinny witch elf has actually more range damages than a pistol class, but yes, tell me i am the joke here
Yes you are, lol. WE was given range in exchange wh was given 50% crit tactic and all the fancy pistol shots became Str but not Ballistic skill based abilities. Want to roll it back? you really do?
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