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SM Changes

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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
Farrul
Posts: 282

Re: SM Changes

Post#71 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:52 pm

Agreed, orcs in particular have incredible potent racial tactics. I'm Da biggest +160 wounds is obviously very good. Stab you Gooder another exceptional tactic. Meanwhile High elf tactics are the opposite, lackuster.

Centuries of training is poor-ish, Dicerning offence is mediocre( I would definitely like to see Centuries of training reworked, i think High Elves deserves something better).

SM is in concept an interesting class, i love to theorycraft on it. BO is however no doubt a better class in the current state of the game, better quality of life on abilities, better pool of tactics available, arguably stronger abilities overall.

People will argue that + Spirit damage(despite itemization being poor for spirit dmg, itemization in RoR favors physical damage) and Wods makes the SM balanced, while Wods is indeed a nice class defining skill and fun to use, it alone doesn't close the gap to the overall nicer BO mirror.

Imho a few quality of life improvements as been discussed(Yes eagle's flight looking at your pathetic 4 second duration on top of clunky stance dance mechanics) and possibly a second look at some of those weak-ish SM tactics would be a good starting point.

P.S. As for suggestions, how about a new spirit convert tactic like Discordant winds, let's see SMs auto swing for Spirit damage and make obsolete skills like Gryphons Lash come to life.

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Meliannia
Posts: 276

Re: SM Changes

Post#72 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:06 am

tazdingo wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:50 pm
there is nothing wrong with comparing classes to their intended mirrors when discussing balance, get this idea of most people being sycophantic about individual classes out of your head because it is not the norm.
BO is my all time main but i can admit that it has many advantages over SM, particularly having a bellow that procs on hit, superior defensive tools and a much easier time mitigating guard dmg.
i'm not gonna fight in BOs corner tooth and nail at the expense of overall game balance just cause it's my favorite class.
wow. Community>Self.
this man deserves recognition, i take my hat off to you, sir
if only others could see beyond their favourite superior class to maybe consider game balance and the community.
We need less 'Self>All' people. WoW mentality
and more 'Community>Self' people. EQ mentality, the Grandaddy of all MMO.

'Swords in the Wind!"

The Mel.

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Aethilmar
Posts: 636

Re: SM Changes

Post#73 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:28 am

Lots of good discussion here. To be clear, though, my original post was not about getting equal or better with the BO or any of the other tanks. I enjoy the class asymmetry even if it does make balancing very hard.

However, the SM does have the worst symmetry between their mechanic and their role of the tanks. I would like to see the SM embrace their theme as an "avoidance" tank that gets tougher to bring down the more they maintain the "dance". Conversely if you want to kill them you should stop the dance (e.g. AP drain or a 4 second KD).

Now maybe it doesn't work that well in practice and I'm okay with being wrong but the SM has always been best in attack imo. That is why I rolled one on live and why I resurrected one here.

The other part, of course, was addressing some QoL things. Eagles Flight is just annoying, Phoenix Wing useless and the whole Cyclonic Vortex thing stems from the complaint that Gusting Winds being a free immunity for Destro thing (alternatively it could have the punt range extended a small amount but I like AOE pull symmetry).

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detrap
Posts: 352
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Re: SM Changes

Post#74 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:50 am

Not sure what the obsession is with eagles flight duration wanting it extended. Again it doesn't stack with wods so it's useless to buff that for 2h when we already get +50% parry. For snb I have explained that survivability is fine already if you use the mechanic to your advantage.

And no one has mentioned black orc morale pump which is the elephant in the room.
Knight 8x - IB 8x - SM 8x / Chosen 3x - BO 4x - BG 5x

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tazdingo
Posts: 1199

Re: SM Changes

Post#75 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:41 am

when "using the mechanic to your advantage" means "avoid interacting with the mechanic as much as possible" i think it's clear that there is an issue

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detrap
Posts: 352
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Re: SM Changes

Post#76 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:51 am

tazdingo wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:41 am when "using the mechanic to your advantage" means "avoid interacting with the mechanic as much as possible" i think it's clear that there is an issue
Not sure what you mean? That's like saying slayers/sorcs/bw/choppas should constantly reset their mechanic to zero? You are not avoiding anything, you are making the most of the advantage of being in each particular stance depending on the situation. Why as a 2h for example, dot and taunt a target running away from me and switch out of perfect stance and lose all my crit bonus lol. People just don't understand the mechanic and feel like jelly because they are switching out of the best defensive stances too quickly.
Knight 8x - IB 8x - SM 8x / Chosen 3x - BO 4x - BG 5x

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Sinisterror
Posts: 838

Re: SM Changes

Post#77 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:07 am

detrap wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:51 am
tazdingo wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:41 am when "using the mechanic to your advantage" means "avoid interacting with the mechanic as much as possible" i think it's clear that there is an issue
Not sure what you mean? That's like saying slayers/sorcs/bw/choppas should constantly reset their mechanic to zero? You are not avoiding anything, you are making the most of the advantage of being in each particular stance depending on the situation. Why as a 2h for example, dot and taunt a target running away from me and switch out of perfect stance and lose all my crit bonus lol. People just don't understand the mechanic and feel like jelly because they are switching out of the best defensive stances too quickly.
Detrap, you dont have to speak in every thread where you dont even know why or what you are saying. Like saying EF not stacking with wods and therefore you dont understand why the 4 sec length is an issue, or that you saying "people dont understand the mechanic and are jelly " tells me enough about your current understanding about the game and in general=) Imo Adding to phoenix wing 25 % chance to stun target for 1 sec ignoring immunities and not causing immunities and the proposed aoe pull replacing aoe kb makes perfect sense for 2h tank who originally was supposed to be dps class in warhammer online instead of tank.

Old Phantom's blade bubble proc WHILE attacking or old Heaven's blade resis debuffs WHILE attacking made so much more sense than what these do nowadays. Also changing quick incision to 10 sec spirit dot imo makes alot of sense while changing the deep inc tactic " AA is now spirit dmg " or " when you attack with direct skill your opponent takes " this amount " of spirit dmg cannot be avoided " Ive been thinking about some kind of 2h skill for SM requiring disrupt/dodge/parry and ignores gcd that gives the attacker 3 second debuff and during that 3 second everytime you attack with direct skill (even AA) you do extra dmg. 10 sec cooldown.

And not having aoe kb which would be changed to aoe pull, making redirected force usable with 2h is must=) These changes and SM is starting to be very nice!
"To clarify, me asking to developers to go test their own changes is not sign of toxicity or anger, but a sign of hope that the people punching in the numbers remain aware of potential consequences and test their own changes"-Teefz

HarkonenTimber
Posts: 37

Re: SM Changes

Post#78 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:19 am

Farrul wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:52 pm Agreed, orcs in particular have incredible potent racial tactics. I'm Da biggest +160 wounds is obviously very good. Stab you Gooder another exceptional tactic. Meanwhile High elf tactics are the opposite, lackuster.

Centuries of training is poor-ish, Dicerning offence is mediocre( I would definitely like to see Centuries of training reworked, i think High Elves deserves something better).

SM is in concept an interesting class, i love to theorycraft on it. BO is however no doubt a better class in the current state of the game, better quality of life on abilities, better pool of tactics available, arguably stronger abilities overall.

People will argue that + Spirit damage(despite itemization being poor for spirit dmg, itemization in RoR favors physical damage) and Wods makes the SM balanced, while Wods is indeed a nice class defining skill and fun to use, it alone doesn't close the gap to the overall nicer BO mirror.

Imho a few quality of life improvements as been discussed(Yes eagle's flight looking at your pathetic 4 second duration on top of clunky stance dance mechanics) and possibly a second look at some of those weak-ish SM tactics would be a good starting point.

P.S. As for suggestions, how about a new spirit convert tactic like Discordant winds, let's see SMs auto swing for Spirit damage and make obsolete skills like Gryphons Lash come to life.
The fact that SM deals spirit damage is already not an advantage anymore.

- Base Tooltip damage is already lower than other tanks that use physical abilities.
- Heaven's Blade was taken away by Torgue after he got his ass kicked (yet again) by Haojun "Say goodbye to your stacking spirit debuff :))))".
- Crashing Wave damage is completely borked since january 2021 patch (dmg wise and if first hit is parried the ability is canceled).
- Whispering Winds damage is completely borked since january 2021 patch (dmg wise and if first hit is parried the ability is canceled).
- Centuries of training and Potent Enchantments (PE is physical) do not scale so at this stage are garbage.
- The devs applied a general stat distribution for all tank sets, and aside from itemization on sovereign being garbage, both sovereign sets are laden with weapon skill for SM.
Doyoustretch - BO

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detrap
Posts: 352
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Re: SM Changes

Post#79 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:22 am

Spoiler:
Sinisterror wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:07 am
detrap wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:51 am
tazdingo wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:41 am when "using the mechanic to your advantage" means "avoid interacting with the mechanic as much as possible" i think it's clear that there is an issue
Not sure what you mean? That's like saying slayers/sorcs/bw/choppas should constantly reset their mechanic to zero? You are not avoiding anything, you are making the most of the advantage of being in each particular stance depending on the situation. Why as a 2h for example, dot and taunt a target running away from me and switch out of perfect stance and lose all my crit bonus lol. People just don't understand the mechanic and feel like jelly because they are switching out of the best defensive stances too quickly.
Detrap, you dont have to speak in every thread where you dont even know why or what you are saying. Like saying EF not stacking with wods and therefore you dont understand why the 4 sec length is an issue, or that you saying "people dont understand the mechanic and are jelly " tells me enough about your current understanding about the game and in general=) Imo Adding to phoenix wing 25 % chance to stun target for 1 sec ignoring immunities and not causing immunities and the proposed aoe pull replacing aoe kb makes perfect sense for 2h tank who originally was supposed to be dps class in warhammer online instead of tank.

Old Phantom's blade bubble proc WHILE attacking or old Heaven's blade resis debuffs WHILE attacking made so much more sense than what these do nowadays. Also changing quick incision to 10 sec spirit dot imo makes alot of sense while changing the deep inc tactic " AA is now spirit dmg " or " when you attack with direct skill your opponent takes " this amount " of spirit dmg cannot be avoided " Ive been thinking about some kind of 2h skill for SM requiring disrupt/dodge/parry and ignores gcd that gives the attacker 3 second debuff and during that 3 second everytime you attack with direct skill (even AA) you do extra dmg. 10 sec cooldown.

And not having aoe kb which would be changed to aoe pull, making redirected force usable with 2h is must=) These changes and SM is starting to be very nice!
Unfortunately the Swordmaster class in this game is a tank class, and already does enough damage as a tank.

You already have blurring shock to help add extra spirit damage on any target that you can also debuff their spirit resistances to 0 if they aren't buffed. Deep incision as far as I'm aware can't even be cleansed so it's already a decent tactic.

Phoenix Wing is good enough for pushing out debuffs and dot damage, only 23 AP too with Adept Movements if you want to spam it.

There could have been plausible reasons to remove the immunity ignoring, 1 second stun SM's had on live. The idea of giving them and the BO (balance reasons) both a rift seems too much. On top of such a change the SM would still have an AoE rift and a AoE morale mega punt.
Knight 8x - IB 8x - SM 8x / Chosen 3x - BO 4x - BG 5x

CytheX
Posts: 105

Re: SM Changes

Post#80 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:06 am

detrap wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:22 am
Spoiler:
Sinisterror wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:07 am
detrap wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:51 am

Not sure what you mean? That's like saying slayers/sorcs/bw/choppas should constantly reset their mechanic to zero? You are not avoiding anything, you are making the most of the advantage of being in each particular stance depending on the situation. Why as a 2h for example, dot and taunt a target running away from me and switch out of perfect stance and lose all my crit bonus lol. People just don't understand the mechanic and feel like jelly because they are switching out of the best defensive stances too quickly.
Detrap, you dont have to speak in every thread where you dont even know why or what you are saying. Like saying EF not stacking with wods and therefore you dont understand why the 4 sec length is an issue, or that you saying "people dont understand the mechanic and are jelly " tells me enough about your current understanding about the game and in general=) Imo Adding to phoenix wing 25 % chance to stun target for 1 sec ignoring immunities and not causing immunities and the proposed aoe pull replacing aoe kb makes perfect sense for 2h tank who originally was supposed to be dps class in warhammer online instead of tank.

Old Phantom's blade bubble proc WHILE attacking or old Heaven's blade resis debuffs WHILE attacking made so much more sense than what these do nowadays. Also changing quick incision to 10 sec spirit dot imo makes alot of sense while changing the deep inc tactic " AA is now spirit dmg " or " when you attack with direct skill your opponent takes " this amount " of spirit dmg cannot be avoided " Ive been thinking about some kind of 2h skill for SM requiring disrupt/dodge/parry and ignores gcd that gives the attacker 3 second debuff and during that 3 second everytime you attack with direct skill (even AA) you do extra dmg. 10 sec cooldown.

And not having aoe kb which would be changed to aoe pull, making redirected force usable with 2h is must=) These changes and SM is starting to be very nice!
Unfortunately the Swordmaster class in this game is a tank class, and already does enough damage as a tank.

You already have blurring shock to help add extra spirit damage on any target that you can also debuff their spirit resistances to 0 if they aren't buffed. Deep incision as far as I'm aware can't even be cleansed so it's already a decent tactic.

Phoenix Wing is good enough for pushing out debuffs and dot damage, only 23 AP too with Adept Movements if you want to spam it.

There could have been plausible reasons to remove the immunity ignoring, 1 second stun SM's had on live. The idea of giving them and the BO (balance reasons) both a rift seems too much. On top of such a change the SM would still have an AoE rift and a AoE morale mega punt.
Quick incision is an hex and can be cleansed, u cant spam pw since is improved stance, u can rotate with bubble and sudden shift but this is kinda clunky, not spammable like BO, resist drop to 0 is when u have no healer no chosen or black orc (pug situation) in top of that adept movement is like the worst tattic for sm. Again like other said, if u dont play this clas a know nothing about that, don't talk, stop it.

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