2h Tank guard

[detrap]

Block is capped at 100%, all 3 other avoidance stats are capped at 75%, according to dev statement in the past year. Overcapping makes sense to counter strike through.

Link to source? What about all the guaranteed parry morales/abilities/tactics?

[Aurandilaz]

There is no cap for avoidances, source; Dalen, whom I asked about this just 2-3months ago after some people were spreading fake news about some mysterious cap of 75 for avoidances, which they probably confused with the previous, now removed 75% efficiency for toughness mitigation and the still existing 75% physical dmg mitigation cap (after all calculations via debuffs + arm ignore/pen have been taken into account)


Anyway, the reason people want to run 2handers is because some ABILITIES ARE LOCKED BEHIND 2H REQUIREMENTS so it's not really "your choice" when changes done in ROR, by our previous/current devs, have resulted in forcing people to play 2hander specs if they want access to abilities/tactics that are in demand (BG debuffs, KOTB debuffs, BO dmg channel, etc)

[wargnidalulz]

I am glad OP made this topic, but it should be renamed to "Guard change" because it affects all play styles. Maybe then it would be seen for what it is: an unneeded(unintended?) change to an archetype defining ability.
This change weakened tanks, it weakened their ability to perform the archetype intended role.

If players weren't so busy arguing differences between SnB vs 2h they would realize that you now need more avoidance to counter guard damage regardless of weapon choice and most importantly you now need to spread it to 3 or 4 avoidance types instead of two.

Before a tank would spec to avoid as much guard damage as possible and then focus on your own defenses with what was left, depending on class/gear and spec/renown.
Tanks need to be tanky on both of the receiving ends, soaking up damage and guard damage at the same time(gearing/speccing for it is what makes a tank class effective). The difference now being that before you wanted to avoid damage from melee guard + melee damage, physical and magic ranged attacks directed at you or from aoe or you had the option of choice(focus on rdps avoidance or forgo it in favor of self defense in the more broad aspect(crit reduction, more toughness, wounds, initiative, etc)). Now you need to avoid(soak up) melee, physical and magic ranged damage + melee guard damage, physical ranged guard and magical guard damage.
This is overkill to perform the archetype intended role.

I hope this change is unintended and we get some clarification from the staff on this matter.

[detrap]

There is no cap for avoidances, source; Dalen, whom I asked about this just 2-3months ago after some people were spreading fake news about some mysterious cap of 75 for avoidances, which they probably confused with the previous, now removed 75% efficiency for toughness mitigation and the still existing 75% physical dmg mitigation cap (after all calculations via debuffs + arm ignore/pen have been taken into account)


Anyway, the reason people want to run 2handers is because some ABILITIES ARE LOCKED BEHIND 2H REQUIREMENTS so it's not really "your choice" when changes done in ROR, by our previous/current devs, have resulted in forcing people to play 2hander specs if they want access to abilities/tactics that are in demand (BG debuffs, KOTB debuffs, BO dmg channel, etc)

Thank you for clarifying. What would be the point of an SM slotting Impeccable Reactions and have 200%+ parry if the cap was 75%. I have had plenty combat logs showing constant chains of 10+ consecutively defended guard damage with a 2h.

[detrap]

I am glad OP made this topic, but it should be renamed to "Guard change" because it affects all play styles. Maybe then it would be seen for what it is: an unneeded(unintended?) change to an archetype defining ability.
This change weakened tanks, it weakened their ability to perform the archetype intended role.

If players weren't so busy arguing differences between SnB vs 2h they would realize that you now need more avoidance to counter guard damage regardless of weapon choice and most importantly you now need to spread it to 3 or 4 avoidance types instead of two.

Before a tank would spec to avoid as much guard damage as possible and then focus on your own defenses with what was left, depending on class/gear and spec/renown.
Tanks need to be tanky on both of the receiving ends, soaking up damage and guard damage at the same time(gearing/speccing for it is what makes a tank class effective). The difference now being that before you wanted to avoid damage from melee guard + melee damage, physical and magic ranged attacks directed at you or from aoe or you had the option of choice(focus on rdps avoidance or forgo it in favor of self defense in the more broad aspect(crit reduction, more toughness, wounds, initiative, etc)). Now you need to avoid(soak up) melee, physical and magic ranged damage + melee guard damage, physical ranged guard and magical guard damage.
This is overkill to perform the archetype intended role.

I hope this change is unintended and we get some clarification from the staff on this matter.

The change is warranted. Tanks need to be tanky and not be leaning towards mdps-like damage without paying a penalty other than not having access to certain abilities. If you want to be tanky still you won't need end game gear to have high defences as a 2H tank, and at least you don't have to spend points into block and can spread it over more valuable renown rank buffs.

[wargnidalulz]

The change is warranted. Tanks need to be tanky and not be leaning towards mdps-like damage without paying a penalty other than not having access to certain abilities. If you want to be tanky still you won't need end game gear to have high defences as a 2H tank, and at least you don't have to spend points into block and can spread it over more valuable renown rank buffs.

You keep commenting with the notion that 2h DEFENSIVE tanks dont exist.

Anyway, the reason people want to run 2handers is because some ABILITIES ARE LOCKED BEHIND 2H REQUIREMENTS so it's not really "your choice" when changes done in ROR, by our previous/current devs, have resulted in forcing people to play 2hander specs if they want access to abilities/tactics that are in demand (BG debuffs, KOTB debuffs, BO dmg channel, etc)

This coupled with the option of choice. Re-read what Aurandilaz wrote.

I am curious though, what is this melee-like dps you speak of? Please humor me and provide a sample of melee-like dps from, lets say a 2h knight compared to what you think is the least performing melee dps.

[Ysaran]

I am talking about the guard damage changes. You only needed parry to avoid all the guard damage before the patch was implemented.

Again I've been talking about guard damage mitigation this entire time. Please read. You always melted faster in 2h spec unless you were an SM, that hasn't changed, but the way you receive guard damage has.

PS: There is no 75% cap on defences, explain how Shield Wall works then?

I know you were talking about guard damage, but my point is: it doesn't exist only guard damage. Block help you with all three avoidences, parry with melee attacks and guard damage and dodge/disrupt with ranged attacks. The downside of being 2h is that you don't have block to mitigate ranged damege, since you can't increase you dodge/disrupt with tactics or abilities.
The game is designed to have lower dodge/disrupt rate. You get very few dodge/disrupt from gear, you get no dodge by tactic and there are only two tactics that give disrupt. In terms of RP, you pay both dodge/disrupt the same as parry, even thought you get 2 avoidences at the price of one. HTL gives you huge amount ofboth dodge/disrupt, but no parry or block. All this, because tanks were designed to rely on parry and block mainly.
Block, Parry, Dodge and Disrupt are capped at 75%. HTL gives 45% Dodge and Disrupt to you, and 15% Dodge and Disrupt to those behinde your back. The 15% bonus can stack up to 3 times by receiving HTL from 3 different tanks.
Before patch you needed only parry to mitigate guard damage as 2h, but this wasn't making you as hard as a SnB. You always have traded survivability (and skills locked behinde shield )for utility (better punt and skills locked behinde 2h). Irt was a fair trade, but now is only bs.

The direct damage you take as 2h has not changed yes. But you are not a primary target in city fights or small scale, and unless you are an SM you have no place face tanking multiple warbands in orvr without a shield.

Even tho you are not a primary target there's still AoE damage that you need to soak up. Do you know the amount of spam that Engie and SW can bring up?
There are skill locked behinde 2h requirement and now you can't use it. The main BG wb build (Crimson Death) is dead. And so many other builds. It stupid that you have requirment that you can't fulfill. Just take away those skills.
2h tanks in city aren't trying to "face tank multiple WBs", they are just trying to do their job. What you are saing is basicly that there's no place for 2h tank outside of SCs. But that wasn't the aim of the Devs. The changes to Guard were done to make SnB more viable in smallscale, not to kill 2h tanks in WB environment. Those two things are different.

P.S. my source about the avoidences cap was outdated, my bad

[Bignusty]

I running mostly 2h BO on 6 or 12 man im rr85 and i have any problem to face players whit a good positioning good healer and mdps who are not stupid its working but at a high lvl and high gear. First on tank we r missing fortitude stat on gear like mele power magic power etc . And this previous change on the guard damage was a big nerf for us just because players palyed mostly 2h their tank ... A meh decision ...

[Esperflame]

I run all 6 tanks, three of them being SnB and three of them 2h. This change affected all 6 of them and all of them are squishier for it. Since they made the change, I don't really play all that much anymore. I made all 3 of my 2h tanks to be tanky so I could survive and provide benefit to my team. Not because I wanted to attempt to do DPS levels of dmg. I ran 2h IB because with my M1, I was able to provide all by myself a 2300ish armor debuff to help people deal with the rocketing armor values. Also, IB is the only tank order side with an armor debuff.

My point is this change affects SnB tanks just as hard. It's frustrating and not fun when you nerf the only archtype I really focus and play. This change is just as bad as the 2h guard nerf they did a while ago only instead of increasing damage on the guarded, they've increased the dmg you take as a guardee. Even my SnB tanks seem to consistently take 8/10 guard hits to the face when it used to be closer to 2/10.

[Kantid]

My thought are:
1)2h BG(and other tanks) bring a lot of "thing's" moreover than just 2h guardbot. 2h BG makes dd's life easier. You can not ignore all these debuffs.
2)2h tanks become a master level class. Just running around, stick to your guard's target and cast 2-3 spells + use moral on command is not enough to be viable.
3)It doesnt mean that 2h tanks completely dead.
4)2h tanks need to rethink their behaviors and position on the battlefield.
5)Guard stops to become braindead ability. When and where now are main questions for Guard.
6)You have to "GIT GUD"
7)I dont think that's problem for organized wb. At all. If they need spot for these debuffs they will find spot and player who know what to do.

It's kinda interesting changes. They are painful. But who knows where we will come.