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Pounce/Leap feedback

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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
Sundowner
Posts: 468

Pounce/Leap feedback

Post#1 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:34 am

Hello,

I would like to present and hear from other players feedback on pounce damageback/range reductions change in this week's patch, I also found suggestion topic on which this change was supposedly based on: viewtopic.php?f=95&t=42498

Before I start arguing about relevancy of pounce/leap changes, let's first establish how balance between classes is handled in RoR.

What I and many others like about this game is different archetypes. you can be strong aoe brawler as slayer/choppa, rogue with WH/WE, kite with shammie/rSH/SW/AM and so on. Diversity is what appeals to people and currently many classes have that, robbing them of that in my opinion is step in wrong direction, because of how balance is asymmetrical from class design. What I mean by that- WL/SL/WH are all mdps, but their tools and design are so different that they cannot be compared to each other. Same is rdps, healers and tanks. i.e when you have better dmg output as SL, you offset that with better mobility of WL and better tools for 1v1 takedowns by WH. If you rob classes of their unique traits, you are left with skewed balance, when one class is much stronger and more appealing to play than other. original design by mythic favours diversity between classes, players like it because they can choose classes that suit their playstyle and it's less boring overall.

So to begin arguments made in favour of Pounce/Leap changes 1 by 1.
As long as these pounces have their current range, any backline class have a different zone they need to be aware of, and this will tecnically play into how shorter range abilities are way more risky to pull off
Simply said, Yes, that's role of WL/mSH, I mean their primary role, what makes them classes that they are now. If people wanted to play front-line brawler they will go for SL/Coppa/Mara. and to have classes with high mobility means rdps are not standing still and without danger in backlines casting very high dmg abilities before mdps/tanks reach them.
If you have a masteryspec built around shorter range abilities (less than 100feet) You are constantly in danger of getting swapped to with no visual warning and close to no reaction time to pre-detaunt or use an escape tool cooldown.
except you have visual warning, namely WL or mSH standing on battlefield and coming to you. If you did not notice WL/SH that leapt to you, you are outplayed and lack awareness of your surroundings, which is critical for good wb play. If you play bw/sorc and see WL/SH in close proximity, you should consider either kiting away from them or getting close to your tanks. also do you know what gives no visual warning and leaves no reaction time? Stealth. Should we consider nerfing stealth?

I also think that some part of justification of this change comes from complaining about rdps being sub-optimal in cities, but rdps in cities do not die from pouncing mdps, they die from melee balls, which are favoured by city design with close quarter battlefield that leave no room for good rdps positioning/kiting.

What this change did? It effectively increased strength of kiting classes like sh/sw and shammie/am, also kind of buffing bw/sorc and it was not like sh/sw/shammie/am were suffering from op lions and squigs, quite the contrary, WL and squigs were only mdps who could catch and counter them effectively and this change nerfed even that.

My proposition will be to revert changes on Pounce/Leap, because not only it impacts balance in favour of more static gameplay, but makes kiting classes even stronger, while robbing 2 classes from their sole unique trait, trait which made people play this class.

In my experience, after patch pounce became almost useless ability, because 45ft is very short distance for pounce, sometimes it is better to run to the target, mane classes break pounce distance easily it is harder to deal with shammies/shs with their higher mobility (yes I know run away! was nerfed, but it is still strong ability and these classes have other measures to kite), WL, mSH and aSW became just ordinary mdps without mobility, taking away class uniqueness and I think we should strive to improve unique qualities of classes not other way around.

Critique and other feedback is more than welcome,
Last edited by Sundowner on Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Wiede
Posts: 302

Re: Pounce/Leap feedback

Post#2 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:45 am

You nearly got me with "sorc/bw no kiting classes" :D

Sundowner
Posts: 468

Re: Pounce/Leap feedback

Post#3 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:50 am

Wiede wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:45 am You nearly got me with "sorc/bw no kiting classes" :D
You can kite with sorc/bw, but they are not designed for that like other classes I have mentioned, so when you die to WL/SH you shouldn't act surprised and demand nerf.

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Arbich
Suspended
Posts: 788

Re: Pounce/Leap feedback

Post#4 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:08 am

what makes you think that sorc/bw are no kiter class?
I mean they neither have high armor, nor any specific strong defenses against melee attacks.
And I would say that SH and WL work quite differently. mSH got a huge rework here on this server. I don´t think have to discuss them in unison.
Arbich-BW/Xanthippe-WP/Schnipsel-AM

Sundowner
Posts: 468

Re: Pounce/Leap feedback

Post#5 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:10 am

Arbich wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:08 am what makes you think that sorc/bw are no kiter class?
I mean they neither have high armor, nor any specific strong defenses against melee attacks.
And I would say that SH and WL work quite differently. mSH got a huge rework here on this server. I don´t think have to discuss them in unison.
Bw/sorc in my opinion are more semi-mobile rdps, they lack mobility of sw/sh, but compensate with higher damage. Because of this they are more dependent on support from heals/tanks. I think my definition of kiting class was a little misunderstood, I will modify that section.

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Bozzax
Posts: 2481

Re: Pounce/Leap feedback

Post#6 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:16 am

So are you also saying pet damage speed and dmg buff along with wl aoe spec should be reverted since it is the WL role to be a pounce ST damage class?
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

Sundowner
Posts: 468

Re: Pounce/Leap feedback

Post#7 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:18 am

Bozzax wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:16 am So are you also saying pet damage speed and dmg buff along with wl aoe spec should be reverted since it is the WL role to be a pounce ST damage class?
No. Weird assumption.

Neverever
Posts: 193

Re: Pounce/Leap feedback

Post#8 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:55 am

Bozzax wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:16 am So are you also saying pet damage speed and dmg buff along with wl aoe spec should be reverted since it is the WL role to be a pounce ST damage class?
No he just wants them all..

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TreefAM
Posts: 676

Re: Pounce/Leap feedback

Post#9 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:03 am

The pounce does feel underwhelming honestly, i mean at this point you need to come into melee range of tanks/mdps to be able to pounce on the backline in a wb vs wb fight.

Sundowner
Posts: 468

Re: Pounce/Leap feedback

Post#10 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:08 am

Neverever wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:55 am
Bozzax wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:16 am So are you also saying pet damage speed and dmg buff along with wl aoe spec should be reverted since it is the WL role to be a pounce ST damage class?
No he just wants them all..
if you are talking about WL specifically, pounce is its career defining ability, it has ST and AOE specs naturally. what do you mean by all? also SH has it all in one tree, so stop trolling please, if you have feedback, lay it down.

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