IB Time Management proposal

[Earthcake]

I think its silly at this point to act like mirroring is out of the question. Hell, they just gave kobs everything a chosen has. We can sit and act like the 10% crit buff doesn't deserve to be longer duration because you don't want it spread to your group, meanwhile knight and bg can both use theirs for their ENITRE WARBAND and anyone outside their group even. kobs and bg do this without breaking a sweat and IB has to sit and juggle buffs that don't stack or arent as good as what others can bring. So on top of the shitty time management IB has almost no debuffs, buffs that don't stack, laughable damage. The only real thing ib brings to the table is the parry buff.

The best group AP pump, the best single target shattered limbs, aoe snare, 50% heal debuff, armour debuff, crit + strength buff, ini + parry buff, the best guard damaging avoidance ability in the game, I could probably keep going, oathfriend buffs can be used out of party/warband. The skills are great, the issue is the time wasted just punching your first in the air for most of the fight if you want to apply everything.

Yes, keep going and add even more skills to the already impossible (due to lack of time) "rotation" you are suggesting.
IB problem isn't skill based, it's time based. As long as ppl continue to look at skills they'll keep saying IB is fine.
It's not, seriously, read the initial post again, even black guard that is the second next time starved tank can cast TWICE as many skills as IB.
And please stop saying but IB got this and that and that and also that. Yeah imagine i got 10 cars, if i'm alone i can still only drive one at a time.
So no, IB does't get this AND that AND that, he gets this OR that OR that, and that's a very different story.

[detrap]

I think its silly at this point to act like mirroring is out of the question. Hell, they just gave kobs everything a chosen has. We can sit and act like the 10% crit buff doesn't deserve to be longer duration because you don't want it spread to your group, meanwhile knight and bg can both use theirs for their ENITRE WARBAND and anyone outside their group even. kobs and bg do this without breaking a sweat and IB has to sit and juggle buffs that don't stack or arent as good as what others can bring. So on top of the shitty time management IB has almost no debuffs, buffs that don't stack, laughable damage. The only real thing ib brings to the table is the parry buff.

The best group AP pump, the best single target shattered limbs, aoe snare, 50% heal debuff, armour debuff, crit + strength buff, ini + parry buff, the best guard damaging avoidance ability in the game, I could probably keep going, oathfriend buffs can be used out of party/warband. The skills are great, the issue is the time wasted just punching your first in the air for most of the fight if you want to apply everything.

Yes, keep going and add even more skills to the already impossible (due to lack of time) "rotation" you are suggesting.
IB problem isn't skill based, it's time based. As long as ppl continue to look at skills they'll keep saying IB is fine.
It's not, seriously, read the initial post again, even black guard that is the second next time starved tank can cast TWICE as many skills as IB.
And please stop saying but IB got this and that and that and also that. Yeah imagine i got 10 cars, if i'm alone i can still only drive one at a time.
So no, IB does't get this AND that AND that, he gets this OR that OR that, and that's a very different story.

I understand that the IB is spoiled for choice with so many handy abilities. I'm all for extending the buff duration on certain abilities, but do you need to spam every button on your keyboard? It is the hardest tank to play well because you have all these great tools but you aren't supposed to use everything in the same constant rotation, that's when you are wasting time/resources, you use the ones you need when you need it. If their is only one magic caster on destro in city/scenario I'll be hesitant to use the magic shield unless AP is needed for the group, since it's also is supposed to give me grudge back per hit, i'll be wasting it.

We like to praise the BG for all it's greatness but as an example if I use elite training on my dark protector and it instantly gets severed by an IB, then I have to wait 30 seconds to reapply it. The time constraint with the IB parry buff is that if that blessing gets removed they can easily reapply it since it has no cd which I guess forces you to recast it during your standard rotation? It's not really a bad thing.

However it is obvious there are time constraints more on the IB than other tanks, you cannot do a basic thing well such as hold the line for long because you are tempted to constantly break the channel to use an ability tied to the mechanic.

[Earthcake]

I understand that the IB is spoiled for choice with so many handy abilities. I'm all for extending the buff duration on certain abilities, but do you need to spam every button on your keyboard? It is the hardest tank to play well because you have all these great tools but you aren't supposed to use everything in the same constant rotation, that's when you are wasting time/resources, you use the ones you need when you need it. If their is only one magic caster on destro in city/scenario I'll be hesitant to use the magic shield unless AP is needed for the group, since it's also is supposed to give me grudge back per hit, i'll be wasting it.

We like to praise the BG for all it's greatness but as an example if I use elite training on my dark protector and it instantly gets severed by an IB, then I have to wait 30 seconds to reapply it. The time constraint with the IB parry buff is that if that blessing gets removed they can easily reapply it since it has no cd which I guess forces you to recast it during your standard rotation? It's not really a bad thing.

However it is obvious there are time constraints more on the IB than other tanks, you cannot do a basic thing well such as hold the line for long because you are tempted to constantly break the channel to use an ability tied to the mechanic.

No you don't need to spam every button on your keyboard.
This "IB is hard to play, make the right choices and you'll be good" is laughable.
Is an IB that make the right choices better than one that doesn't ? Of course.
Is that IB a better tank than if he would have played any other tank ? Never.
These choices make you drop something, always. Playing other tanks you also make choices, but they don't make you stop buffing your teamates for exemple.

if I have 10ppl to drive somewhere, i can choose to drive my bus instead of my sports car. Problem is ppl will still say "but IB is soooo fast, it's fine" when in reality, I'm not fast at all anymore.
Taking your exemple : IB buff gets shattered so he has to reapply it. It's not a problem as you say. But go back to the OP, you'll see that IB can cast TWO skills every 10sec out of the "needed rotation". Since IB buff can be shattered evey 5sec, that's two skills he has to reapply every 10sec so he cannot cast ANYTHING AT ALL. Still not a problem in your mind ?
Having all these amazing skills (which ones exactly btw cause most of them are seen on other tanks as well) means nothing if you cannot cast them.

[detrap]

I understand that the IB is spoiled for choice with so many handy abilities. I'm all for extending the buff duration on certain abilities, but do you need to spam every button on your keyboard? It is the hardest tank to play well because you have all these great tools but you aren't supposed to use everything in the same constant rotation, that's when you are wasting time/resources, you use the ones you need when you need it. If their is only one magic caster on destro in city/scenario I'll be hesitant to use the magic shield unless AP is needed for the group, since it's also is supposed to give me grudge back per hit, i'll be wasting it.

We like to praise the BG for all it's greatness but as an example if I use elite training on my dark protector and it instantly gets severed by an IB, then I have to wait 30 seconds to reapply it. The time constraint with the IB parry buff is that if that blessing gets removed they can easily reapply it since it has no cd which I guess forces you to recast it during your standard rotation? It's not really a bad thing.

However it is obvious there are time constraints more on the IB than other tanks, you cannot do a basic thing well such as hold the line for long because you are tempted to constantly break the channel to use an ability tied to the mechanic.

No you don't need to spam every button on your keyboard.
This "IB is hard to play, make the right choices and you'll be good" is laughable.
Is an IB that make the right choices better than one that doesn't ? Of course.
Is that IB a better tank than if he would have played any other tank ? Never.
These choices make you drop something, always. Playing other tanks you also make choices, but they don't make you stop buffing your teamates for exemple.

if I have 10ppl to drive somewhere, i can choose to drive my bus instead of my sports car. Problem is ppl will still say "but IB is soooo fast, it's fine" when in reality, I'm not fast at all anymore.
Taking your exemple : IB buff gets shattered so he has to reapply it. It's not a problem as you say. But go back to the OP, you'll see that IB can cast TWO skills every 10sec out of the "needed rotation". Since IB buff can be shattered evey 5sec, that's two skills he has to reapply every 10sec so he cannot cast ANYTHING AT ALL. Still not a problem in your mind ?
Having all these amazing skills (which ones exactly btw cause most of them are seen on other tanks as well) means nothing if you cannot cast them.

A knight/chosen can only run max 3 auras at a time, and its sometimes a guess what ones to run/switch to that will benefit the warband at that given moment, to change one it takes 5 seconds and we have to drop one. SM stat steal and armor/resis buff is totally random and I believe it doesn't refresh itself, meaning it takes a longer time to reapply the buff after its ended.

Just to explain into more detail about not having to press as many abilities at once...Just maybe you aren't supposed to have a certain number of these buffs permanently up on cd? Do you need to buff 10% dmg/heal crit when the slayer is not channeling during a morale drop? Do you need to buff parry when your oathfriend is not sustaining much damage? Guarded attack when they are using an armor pot? Watch and Learn when you see they have plenty AP already with I Told Ya So tactic...

I've said the useful skills that were unique to the IB for order tanks: The best group AP pump (BG doesn't have), the best single target shattered limbs (BG doesn't have), aoe snare, 50% heal debuff, core armour debuff, crit + strength buff, ini + parry buff, 800% block for 10 seconds with oathstone (guard damage doesn't remove it), core big punt with only 10 second cd.

I did agree with you some of the buffs need their duration extended to not make the IB so hard to master.

[Earthcake]

Yes, you said some things already, doesn't mean they were right in the first place sorry.
Best group AP pump ? ONLY if you use grudges, and quite alot of it actually, otherwise chosen/kotbs aura is superior to provide an AP advantage to your party.

But, you aren't using grudges if you armor debuff, KD with your superior shatter limbs, aoe snare, block with oathstone, taunt, challenge, sever blessing, etc, etc, etc

So maybe you don't have to buff your oathfriend in some specific scenario, but then, you are not providing any AP to your party either.

The longer duration buffs wouldn't make IB easier to master, but make it so it can achieve the potential of the other tank classes. Now you can master it, and you'll still perform less good than if you were playing any other tank in the game.

[Rapzel]

Yes, you said some things already, doesn't mean they were right in the first place sorry.
Best group AP pump ? ONLY if you use grudges, and quite alot of it actually, otherwise chosen/kotbs aura is superior to provide an AP advantage to your party.
But, you aren't using grudges if you armor debuff, KD with your superior shatter limbs, aoe snare, block with oathstone, taunt, challenge, sever blessing, etc, etc, etc

What else do you use grudges for? Chosen and KotBS gives your group 20/3 ap/s, while IB easily can get 30/2 ap/s. That's without using Grudge Unleashed and the WS/AP buff.
Oathstone? Really? None of the current "meta" SnB IB builds allows you to get that ability.

So maybe you don't have to buff your oathfriend in some specific scenario, but then, you are not providing any AP to your party either.
The longer duration buffs wouldn't make IB easier to master, but make it so it can achieve the potential of the other tank classes. Now you can master it, and you'll still perform less good than if you were playing any other tank in the game.

The issue is that you want it to be completely broken, because it's "difficult to play". If you don't want to play a difficult career reroll.
Most of the renowned IB players that have shown up in threads about IB have said that it is in a decent spot and feels balanced when played, it has strenghts and weaknesses.
Yes it's probably the tank with the highest skillcap, and it's not the tank that's overperforming the most, but it's in no way bad or "less good" than other tanks.

[Earthcake]

Yes, you said some things already, doesn't mean they were right in the first place sorry.
Best group AP pump ? ONLY if you use grudges, and quite alot of it actually, otherwise chosen/kotbs aura is superior to provide an AP advantage to your party.
But, you aren't using grudges if you armor debuff, KD with your superior shatter limbs, aoe snare, block with oathstone, taunt, challenge, sever blessing, etc, etc, etc

What else do you use grudges for? Chosen and KotBS gives your group 20/3 ap/s, while IB easily can get 30/2 ap/s. That's without using Grudge Unleashed and the WS/AP buff.
Oathstone? Really? None of the current "meta" SnB IB builds allows you to get that ability.

So maybe you don't have to buff your oathfriend in some specific scenario, but then, you are not providing any AP to your party either.
The longer duration buffs wouldn't make IB easier to master, but make it so it can achieve the potential of the other tank classes. Now you can master it, and you'll still perform less good than if you were playing any other tank in the game.

The issue is that you want it to be completely broken, because it's "difficult to play". If you don't want to play a difficult career reroll.
Most of the renowned IB players that have shown up in threads about IB have said that it is in a decent spot and feels balanced when played, it has strenghts and weaknesses.
Yes it's probably the tank with the highest skillcap, and it's not the tank that's overperforming the most, but it's in no way bad or "less good" than other tanks.

I mentionned oathstone cause he did...

Again, read the original post, its basic maths that anyone can understand.
Maybe "most of the renowned IB players" voiced their feelings about IB being fine.
Yet, maths>feelings and you, them or whoever else can say whatever they want, but using 2 skills while others can use 4 or even more won't be as strong if the skills have somewhat the same efficiency.
No matter how "pro" you are at choosing these 2 skills.

Chosen aura also removes AP from opponents right ? Why aren't you taking that into account before comparing it to TYS! ?
Again, IB isn't difficult to play, not more than other tanks seriously, but performing at 100% (impossible but "pro" players think they can so I mention it for them) on IB won't get you the same result as performing at 100% on another tank.

[Ekundu01]

it feels like IB was made at the beginning of the game, then BG was created late in the development cycle with all the cool stuffs that was figured until then, while IB was left in the dirt.. it needs some help

That is because that was it exactly. The knight and BG came out after the initial release of the live game, they were not in the game at release. But the first version of BG only gave the benefits to the BG none of the hate stuff gave your dark protector anything and it wasn't until months later of complaining about how the BG wasn't like the IB that it was changed to give some benefits it gets to its dark protector.

That is why some skills the knight and bg have are similar. Things like the 25% armor ignore on Murderous Wrath and Precision strike, staggering impact and furious howl, chance to be crit increaser all though the knights was first tied to the str aura and not arcing swing, wounds debuff.

[Rapzel]

Yes, you said some things already, doesn't mean they were right in the first place sorry.
Best group AP pump ? ONLY if you use grudges, and quite alot of it actually, otherwise chosen/kotbs aura is superior to provide an AP advantage to your party.
But, you aren't using grudges if you armor debuff, KD with your superior shatter limbs, aoe snare, block with oathstone, taunt, challenge, sever blessing, etc, etc, etc

What else do you use grudges for? Chosen and KotBS gives your group 20/3 ap/s, while IB easily can get 30/2 ap/s. That's without using Grudge Unleashed and the WS/AP buff.
Oathstone? Really? None of the current "meta" SnB IB builds allows you to get that ability.

So maybe you don't have to buff your oathfriend in some specific scenario, but then, you are not providing any AP to your party either.
The longer duration buffs wouldn't make IB easier to master, but make it so it can achieve the potential of the other tank classes. Now you can master it, and you'll still perform less good than if you were playing any other tank in the game.

The issue is that you want it to be completely broken, because it's "difficult to play". If you don't want to play a difficult career reroll.
Most of the renowned IB players that have shown up in threads about IB have said that it is in a decent spot and feels balanced when played, it has strenghts and weaknesses.
Yes it's probably the tank with the highest skillcap, and it's not the tank that's overperforming the most, but it's in no way bad or "less good" than other tanks.

I mentionned oathstone cause he did...

Again, read the original post, its basic maths that anyone can understand.
Maybe "most of the renowned IB players" voiced their feelings about IB being fine.
Yet, maths>feelings and you, them or whoever else can say whatever they want, but using 2 skills while others can use 4 or even more won't be as strong if the skills have somewhat the same efficiency.
No matter how "pro" you are at choosing these 2 skills.

Chosen aura also removes AP from opponents right ? Why aren't you taking that into account before comparing it to TYS! ?
Again, IB isn't difficult to play, not more than other tanks seriously, but performing at 100% (impossible but "pro" players think they can so I mention it for them) on IB won't get you the same result as performing at 100% on another tank.

The issue is that you're looking at time, the abilities are not equally strong, there for you cannot only look at the time variable.
Two abilities that are often compared are the AoE slow on BG and IB, Wave of Scorn does not improve with hatred, costs 55 AP and has a medium range base damage.
Earthshatter on the other hand has damage which scales with grudge, starting at a lower value, but almost doubling the base damage of Wave of Scorn with 100 grudge along with a AP cost of 25.
Otherwise they are identical.
Does that mean that they're both equally strong abilities?
Or is one stronger than the other one?
According to your logic they're both equally strong, because they have the same CD and uptime, but there are several more parameters that needs to be taken into consideration when evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of different careers.

As I've said before, the only change I see that could be done on IB is to align the Paths to be more specialized in their respective area.

[Earthcake]

The issue is that you're looking at time, the abilities are not equally strong, there for you cannot only look at the time variable.
Two abilities that are often compared are the AoE slow on BG and IB, Wave of Scorn does not improve with hatred, costs 55 AP and has a medium range base damage.
Earthshatter on the other hand has damage which scales with grudge, starting at a lower value, but almost doubling the base damage of Wave of Scorn with 100 grudge along with a AP cost of 25.
Otherwise they are identical.
Does that mean that they're both equally strong abilities?
Or is one stronger than the other one?
According to your logic they're both equally strong, because they have the same CD and uptime, but there are several more parameters that needs to be taken into consideration when evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of different careers.

As I've said before, the only change I see that could be done on IB is to align the Paths to be more specialized in their respective area.

Or the issue is that you are not looking at time.
Not talking about aoe snare here due to CD but, if a BG can use twice as many time an ability, then even if it hits for only half the damage, at the end of a 10s window, BG did the same dmg as IB.
This whole IB can choose thing is just not a valid argument.
What if tell you that you can pick a BG with 7 slots for talismans, or the same BG with only 4 talismans slots ?
You'd pick the 7 slot one 100% of the time, even when I tell you "but you can CHOOSE the 4 talismans you slot so it's fine, you are a noob if you cannot make it work!"
Yeah well, you can also choose the 7 talismans with the other BG and 7>4, no matter how good you think you are and how bad you think I m...