SH proposal

[wachlarz]

We asked for suggestions, people gave them, we used them to put together changes. These are the changes. If they're bad we will find out in the long run, over weeks and months, and we will make adjustments. Not on patch day with the sort of feedback that we were absolutely expecting regarding the reduced range of their skirmish spec or the reduced aoe capability to conform with our goals for the spec. Would it be nice to have 100' range on everything and retain spammable AOE? Sure it would. It sure would be nice. Does that make sense for the spec or a semblance of balance for the class where risk/reward needs to be considered? Nah. It doesn't. SH has a lot of survival tools if someone closes the gap on them. If they're going to run skirmish, it should come at some risk. It wouldn't make sense to load them up with any kind of mobile killing power that the class was missing while keeping all the distance that makes them incredibly safe to play.

which QA squig asked for such changes? I don't know anyone ... Everyone just wanted a minor buff.

Have you ever played a squig? I can hardly imagine.

First the senseless removal of the Renown Abilities, pet range nerf and now also the removal of the range tactic for a kite class.

AA tactic in the QA path, m3 makes more dmg than the skillable m4, removing the armor buff from the pet. that makes absolutely no sense.

I Love New squig armor. Its free, low cd, U can have any pet and when needed U can jump inside for armor buff.

[Grunbag]

That I'll agree with. Both seem to have been an admission by Mythic that maybe pets aren't too stellar, lol.

Without proper feedback about their survivability with new pet heal tactic we can’t really fix them

Here is what you are missing. With the limited tactic slot squig herder already faces as a problem due to the fact that it needs 2 slots to reach the stat cap in the first place, I don't think anyone would be putting that tactic into use.

Remove ABM ?

[Oglaf]

That I'll agree with. Both seem to have been an admission by Mythic that maybe pets aren't too stellar, lol.

Without proper feedback about their survivability with new pet heal tactic we can’t really fix them

Here is what you are missing. With the limited tactic slot squig herder already faces as a problem due to the fact that it needs 2 slots to reach the stat cap in the first place, I don't think anyone would be putting that tactic into use.

Bingo. Fixing it with a tactic is a poor, poor idea. Terrible actually.

Tactic slots are the most limited resources available to a character and should never be used as a crutch to prop their failings.

As I said previously, you're forcing this class to play with only 3 Tactic slots this way - and that's horrendous.

[Grunbag]

Without proper feedback about their survivability with new pet heal tactic we can’t really fix them

Here is what you are missing. With the limited tactic slot squig herder already faces as a problem due to the fact that it needs 2 slots to reach the stat cap in the first place, I don't think anyone would be putting that tactic into use.

Bingo. Fixing it with a tactic is a poor, poor idea. Terrible actually.

Tactic slots are the most limited resources available to a character and should never be used as a crutch to prop their failings.

As I said previously, you're forcing this class to play with only 3 Tactic slots this way - and that's horrendous.

Its just here to replace ABM . That’s what you missed .

[Jurki]

Update: After testing myself and watching some twitch stuff trying to handle the SH (which didnt work even tho i usually enjoy to see people try to play sh): most of the changes the developers made are, and now attention pls folks, not compatible with the following. To keep the changes now with increasing range to 100ft would be too much. They would make the SH too powerful and i understand that. So there needs to be additional adjustments, listen up:

-increase the base range of quick shooting abilities to 98ft-100ft (was already my proposal - and is crucial for the overall performance of the class - as you might already know now)

-change SWDW: give it a SLIGHT armor pen. increase (so armored targets are better dealt with) --> that way it also opens up the opportunity to use other tactics as well (like pierce defence in combination with run away, or grp supporting tactics), it widens the spectrum of viable tactic opportunities. Maybe the crit increase for QS abilties as it is right now would work too. Suggestions anyone?

-revert the range knockdown ability: was an ambitious change but pls no range knockdown (we already have a good toolkit besides that), but the old ini debuff of the QS path allowing casting while running (movement is the class key - a range of 100ft is mandatory - 100ft is by the way not long range - melees and rdps already have toolkits to close the gaps or to fight on that range (regarding rpds) effectively with a much greater dmg output than the SH). A 100ft range, i can only repeat, is a necessary range to give the player the chance to react on his surroundings - that was the primary defensive tool the class had since its natural vulnerability.

-keep the squig frenzy cd on 1 min (that way its better integrated into the fights - giving a temporary dmg boost)

-I am undecided regarding the squig depending temporary effects of Squig Frenzy as it is right now

-keep the new tastes like chicken effect

-change finish em off back to the big shooting path to also support the viability of that stationary path

-squig beast back to m3 (that way we have a slight dmg burst potential - combined with armor pen. of SWDW (in my idea) and the squig frenzy its quite decent without melting enemies in under 2 secs (terrain is also a big problem causing the squig to not function well) and supports the integrating of rSH into 6 man grps --> it gives the opportunity to have m1 (concealment) and m3 (squig beast) and to decide in the context of the situation if a defensive or aggressive approach is more fitting --> improves survivability of an otherwise fragile class (as it should be).

-change Shoot thru Ya back to base ability: for the guys who wanted a more viable opportunity to make AE with the QS SH I have to make this statement: This path is not meant for your average WB AE gameplay. If you want to support your warband as a QS rSH then talk to your team and support the melees (like WE death squads for example) to get into the backline and kill the healers. Also you still can do decent dmg when using Expert Skirmisher and Explosive Shots (M3). You wouldnt do that much dmg as a choppa, mSH or Sorcs for example, but you can still contribute. One path shouldnt do anything at a good level (thats something i can agree on).

-Red Dot arrer: interesting design, I dont quite know if this ability should stay as it is, good thing is that its an additional instant supporting dmg output that could be the difference in the fight but it could be too strong in combination with the stuff i proposed. the interrupting effect is nice too but maybe too strong in the fight - the melee variant might be the smarter approach after all because that includes a risky approach to for example push up to the healer and interrupt a res or heal while exposing one self to other dps to react on that.

-the reduced aoe dmg on the pets is already a good step supporting more survivability for for example the spiked squig which still has less range than the gas squig. the reduced range, introduced with an update some time ago now already caused problems with kiting since essential abilities like Drop That! didnt work on ranges it would disarm before. Increasing the range of Spiked Squig would support a fluid and mobile playstile - which includes a decent range of the player as well (not 65 feet but 100ft) as a mandatory requirement to actually work.

I want to underline: The rSH didnt need hard and ever changing adjustments (tho he might after this patch). Only a few tweaks as I, atleast I hope so, could show with that post.

[maxonian]

Since we're discussing rSH proposals here, I'll copy a part of my post from Patch Notes 27/11/2020 thread (this post) that specifically focuses on possible changes (in the original post I also go over how it felt to play in the field after the changes). Just to give devteam feedback and make rSH players' voices heard:

1) Shoot Thru Ya
Back to core ability. @Wargrimnir said in this thread that the only other option for Shoot Thru Ya was for it to be gone. But why? Why not leave it as it was? What is the reasoning behind this change? Was it because 'the AOE spec' of SH is mSH and thus no other AOE skills should be accessed outside of this spec? I think even order players never stated that Shoot Thru Ya is OP and should be toned down because rSH are totally thwarting their fort/keep funnel pushes. And that says something, considering how each faction is at the throat of their opposing one. IMO Shoot Thru Ya was in a perfect spot: 1) The only real AOE skill of rSH 2) Okay damage. Doesnt need to be tuned up or down 3) Drawback of exposing yourself at 65ft range (i.e. Lag for 2 sec during a Fort def when order pushes through the destro funnel and you suddenly find yourself in a sea of slayers, WLs and order tanks, rooted or knocked down and then shortly after with a cute gray panel with a timer and word 'Respawn' on it) 4) Great for PVE trash clearing with Expert Skirmisher. Solid skill with hefty advantages (real AOE, okay dmg, cast on move) and just as serious drawbacks (2 sec cast, 65ft range).

2) Finish Em Off
Back to 13 pt BS mastery skill. Having finisher have 65ft range is very awkward. A lot of burst potential gone with the range changed to 65ft. Lack of Finish Em off reduces BS path to being mere plinkin-machine.

3) Not So Fast
Moved to QS with range reduced to 65ft.

4) Run-n-Shoot, Rotten Arrer, Yer bleeding
Range increased to 98/100ft innate. Notice I'm not suggesting to revert Shootin Wif Da Wind tactic to it's previous state. So this still leaves other QS abilities – Stop Running, Behind Ya, Red Tipped Arrer and Not So fast (as per (3)) at 65ft range.

IMO, these proposed changes are not as radical as some that players stated in this thread i.e. revert SWDW to it's original state or even make SWDW in it's previous state core. But that being said, I agree that 65ft is NO range for rSH to be at from their enemies. Too squishy on the defence. Or too useless on the offence if you stay farther than 65ft and rely on current-state BS skills and disregard your other (dare I say class defining) abilities.

If devteam is absolutely hell-bent on having QS tree limited to 65ft, that would really be strange for SWs BA and SFA to keep 100ft range (not to mention having stackable BA). Doesnt seem fair.

Mobility and fluidity is the heart of this class. At 65ft rSH is much more likely to be dead than be alive and mobile. So rSHs stay back and plink. With mobility gone, spirit of rSH is gone.

[adamska2]

Skori you say Without proper feedback about their survivability with new pet heal tactic we can’t really fix them

the Feedback is Easy for I Got Lots is way more safer than the new one.
Issue with the new one if somebody want to focus your pet he will die anyway.

[Grunbag]

Skori you say Without proper feedback about their survivability with new pet heal tactic we can’t really fix them

the Feedback is Easy for I Got Lots is way more safer than the new one.
Issue with the new one if somebody want to focus your pet he will die anyway.

Second one is forcing you to cast them , 2 second static cast time

Tastes Like Stunties / Da smell don’t bother me would also provide a heal to your pet

[Grunbag]

Update: After testing myself and watching some twitch stuff trying to handle the SH (which didnt work even tho i usually enjoy to see people try to play sh): most of the changes the developers made are, and now attention pls folks, not compatible with the following. To keep the changes now with increasing range to 100ft would be too much. They would make the SH too powerful and i understand that. So there needs to be additional adjustments, listen up:

-increase the base range of quick shooting abilities to 98ft-100ft (was already my proposal - and is crucial for the overall performance of the class - as you might already know now)

-change SWDW: give it a SLIGHT armor pen. increase (so armored targets are better dealt with) --> that way it also opens up the opportunity to use other tactics as well (like pierce defence in combination with run away, or grp supporting tactics), it widens the spectrum of viable tactic opportunities. Maybe the crit increase for QS abilties as it is right now would work too. Suggestions anyone?

-revert the range knockdown ability: was an ambitious change but pls no range knockdown (we already have a good toolkit besides that), but the old ini debuff of the QS path allowing casting while running (movement is the class key - a range of 100ft is mandatory - 100ft is by the way not long range - melees and rdps already have toolkits to close the gaps or to fight on that range (regarding rpds) effectively with a much greater dmg output than the SH). A 100ft range, i can only repeat, is a necessary range to give the player the chance to react on his surroundings - that was the primary defensive tool the class had since its natural vulnerability.

-keep the squig frenzy cd on 1 min (that way its better integrated into the fights - giving a temporary dmg boost)

-I am undecided regarding the squig depending temporary effects of Squig Frenzy as it is right now

-keep the new tastes like chicken effect

-change finish em off back to the big shooting path to also support the viability of that stationary path

-squig beast back to m3 (that way we have a slight dmg burst potential - combined with armor pen. of SWDW (in my idea) and the squig frenzy its quite decent without melting enemies in under 2 secs (terrain is also a big problem causing the squig to not function well) and supports the integrating of rSH into 6 man grps --> it gives the opportunity to have m1 (concealment) and m3 (squig beast) and to decide in the context of the situation if a defensive or aggressive approach is more fitting --> improves survivability of an otherwise fragile class (as it should be).

-change Shoot thru Ya back to base ability: for the guys who wanted a more viable opportunity to make AE with the QS SH I have to make this statement: This path is not meant for your average WB AE gameplay. If you want to support your warband as a QS rSH then talk to your team and support the melees (like WE death squads for example) to get into the backline and kill the healers. Also you still can do decent dmg when using Expert Skirmisher and Explosive Shots (M3). You wouldnt do that much dmg as a choppa, mSH or Sorcs for example, but you can still contribute. One path shouldnt do anything at a good level (thats something i can agree on).

-Red Dot arrer: interesting design, I dont quite know if this ability should stay as it is, good thing is that its an additional instant supporting dmg output that could be the difference in the fight but it could be too strong in combination with the stuff i proposed. the interrupting effect is nice too but maybe too strong in the fight - the melee variant might be the smarter approach after all because that includes a risky approach to for example push up to the healer and interrupt a res or heal while exposing one self to other dps to react on that.

-the reduced aoe dmg on the pets is already a good step supporting more survivability for for example the spiked squig which still has less range than the gas squig. the reduced range, introduced with an update some time ago now already caused problems with kiting since essential abilities like Drop That! didnt work on ranges it would disarm before. Increasing the range of Spiked Squig would support a fluid and mobile playstile - which includes a decent range of the player as well (not 65 feet but 100ft) as a mandatory requirement to actually work.

I want to underline: The rSH didnt need hard and ever changing adjustments (tho he might after this patch). Only a few tweaks as I, atleast I hope so, could show with that post.

You probably haven’t noticed that sharpened arrer tactic already increase the armor pen of all your ranged abilities , so no need to add armor pen to SWDW.

We will have a better view on the change the next few days / week . But one thing is sure we won’t add STY back to core . We stated that aoe will be on bouncing and stat in bouncing.

[Jurki]

Update: After testing myself and watching some twitch stuff trying to handle the SH (which didnt work even tho i usually enjoy to see people try to play sh): most of the changes the developers made are, and now attention pls folks, not compatible with the following. To keep the changes now with increasing range to 100ft would be too much. They would make the SH too powerful and i understand that. So there needs to be additional adjustments, listen up:

-increase the base range of quick shooting abilities to 98ft-100ft (was already my proposal - and is crucial for the overall performance of the class - as you might already know now)

-change SWDW: give it a SLIGHT armor pen. increase (so armored targets are better dealt with) --> that way it also opens up the opportunity to use other tactics as well (like pierce defence in combination with run away, or grp supporting tactics), it widens the spectrum of viable tactic opportunities. Maybe the crit increase for QS abilties as it is right now would work too. Suggestions anyone?

-revert the range knockdown ability: was an ambitious change but pls no range knockdown (we already have a good toolkit besides that), but the old ini debuff of the QS path allowing casting while running (movement is the class key - a range of 100ft is mandatory - 100ft is by the way not long range - melees and rdps already have toolkits to close the gaps or to fight on that range (regarding rpds) effectively with a much greater dmg output than the SH). A 100ft range, i can only repeat, is a necessary range to give the player the chance to react on his surroundings - that was the primary defensive tool the class had since its natural vulnerability.

-keep the squig frenzy cd on 1 min (that way its better integrated into the fights - giving a temporary dmg boost)

-I am undecided regarding the squig depending temporary effects of Squig Frenzy as it is right now

-keep the new tastes like chicken effect

-change finish em off back to the big shooting path to also support the viability of that stationary path

-squig beast back to m3 (that way we have a slight dmg burst potential - combined with armor pen. of SWDW (in my idea) and the squig frenzy its quite decent without melting enemies in under 2 secs (terrain is also a big problem causing the squig to not function well) and supports the integrating of rSH into 6 man grps --> it gives the opportunity to have m1 (concealment) and m3 (squig beast) and to decide in the context of the situation if a defensive or aggressive approach is more fitting --> improves survivability of an otherwise fragile class (as it should be).

-change Shoot thru Ya back to base ability: for the guys who wanted a more viable opportunity to make AE with the QS SH I have to make this statement: This path is not meant for your average WB AE gameplay. If you want to support your warband as a QS rSH then talk to your team and support the melees (like WE death squads for example) to get into the backline and kill the healers. Also you still can do decent dmg when using Expert Skirmisher and Explosive Shots (M3). You wouldnt do that much dmg as a choppa, mSH or Sorcs for example, but you can still contribute. One path shouldnt do anything at a good level (thats something i can agree on).

-Red Dot arrer: interesting design, I dont quite know if this ability should stay as it is, good thing is that its an additional instant supporting dmg output that could be the difference in the fight but it could be too strong in combination with the stuff i proposed. the interrupting effect is nice too but maybe too strong in the fight - the melee variant might be the smarter approach after all because that includes a risky approach to for example push up to the healer and interrupt a res or heal while exposing one self to other dps to react on that.

-the reduced aoe dmg on the pets is already a good step supporting more survivability for for example the spiked squig which still has less range than the gas squig. the reduced range, introduced with an update some time ago now already caused problems with kiting since essential abilities like Drop That! didnt work on ranges it would disarm before. Increasing the range of Spiked Squig would support a fluid and mobile playstile - which includes a decent range of the player as well (not 65 feet but 100ft) as a mandatory requirement to actually work.

I want to underline: The rSH didnt need hard and ever changing adjustments (tho he might after this patch). Only a few tweaks as I, atleast I hope so, could show with that post.

You probably haven’t noticed that sharpened arrer tactic already increase the armor pen of all your ranged abilities , so no need to add armor pen to SWDW.

We will have a better view on the change the next few days / week . But one thing is sure we won’t add STY back to core . We stated that aoe will be on bouncing and stat in bouncing.

I noticed, but Im not quite sure if I would agree on a separate tactic in the big shooting path to grant that PLUS the effect SWDW grants right now if you increase the range again (which, as you might know, is something i really advise). Thats what I meant in the introduction of my post - i think most of order players would agree on that). It would be too powerful. Increasing range (as core) should be priority with only one additional tactic (SWDW) granting crit or armor pen. (which i would recommend). Rest is slight improvement of the squig pet. Shame about STY but still I recommend to change Squigbeast back to m3. Nice to hear that you observe it.