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[Sorc] Suggestions

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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
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ScumFM
Posts: 19

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#131 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:26 pm

sabat80 wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:47 pm It was changes long time ago so you don't get an Infernal Wave spam with every BO cooldown reduction.

5 seconds is the best what you cna have, despite ability on taskbar showing 0 seconds with CF / WA...
Do you know if this change was done during life or RoR?

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Atropik
Posts: 708

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#132 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:35 pm

ScumFM wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:26 pm Do you know if this change was done during life or RoR?
That was RoR, and not so long time ago. I remember every guild guild wb running choppa+sorc abusing this combo. Worked nice btw, almost like Surging pain before nerf.
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teiloh
Posts: 691

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#133 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:27 pm

Caduceus wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:42 am I see what you're saying, but there's a few issues with this line of reasoning.

The first is the idea that Sorc AoE is all Spirit damage. This is simply not the case. A large portion of the Sorc's AoE damage is in fact Corporeal.
Ice Spikes (+Chilling Gusts) is a staple of Sorc AoE and one of its heavy hitters. It deals Corporeal damage, and so does Chilling Gusts.
However, the quintessence of Sorc AoE damage is easily overlooked; Frozen Touch with Frozen Fury. Again, Corporeal damage. Frozen Touch/Fury essentially adds a Corporeal component to every Spirit-based ability. Many spells, including Gloom of Night, would not be worth the cast if they didn't proc Frozen Touch.

Secondly, CD reduction isn't as great for Sorc as it is for some other classes. A single Waaagh or Chop Fasta can reduce the cooldown on Infernal Wave to zero, assuming one specs for it. That's not bad, but that's also all it enables. Besides, even a spec built around IW will want to incorporate Ice Spikes simply because of it's superior damage, so the benefit one gains from having no cooldown on IW is minor.
Also, last I played my SM the range on Whispering Winds was 100ft, just like the BO's Waaagh and the Choppa's Chop Fasta. The fact that it requires Perfect Balance is a moot point, since SM can use Sudden Shift in combination with other abilities to get into Perfect Balance instantly.

Thirdly, I'm not sure what to think of those rotations. They're not ones I would use, personally. Neither benefit hugely from Spirit resistance reduction (Ice Spikes and Shadow Knives are both Corporeal damage, for one) or CD reduction, so I don't see how they support your argument in the way you seem to imply.

Lastly, before your last post I had the impression you were talking about Sorc ST damage, but now it is clear you are talking about AoE. This makes your position a rather odd one, since you seem to be arguing that Sorc and BW AoE are on par with each other. I think it is obvious that they are not and a quick glance at the tactics that are available to both classes can confirm this. BW has a wide selection of tactics that can directly increase the AoE damage potential of nearly all of their AoE spells. Sorc only has one such tactic in its entire arsenal; Frozen Fury.

In summary, whether BW AoE beats Sorc AoE is, as far as I know, not up for debate. It is obvious that the BW is better in this regard. Your arguments to the contrary feel construed and unpracticable to a degree that make me hesitate whether you have ever put these things into practice yourself.
Sorcs mainstay AOE is Spirit. But with Corporeal the imbalance is even worse, all you need is one Zealot with a low level tactic and Destro with a BO can drop a zerg's resists down to 0.

The Destro CD reducers are superior because the Choppa and BO can hit them right at the start of a fight where their own group is clumped up. With a SM you have to wait for the SM to run into a suitable target, get their last in chain attack, and actually land the hits needed. It takes 5-6 seconds whereas Destro support and DPS can start their optimal rotations right away without having to risk triggering a cooldown, which just invalidates the whole purpose of CD reducer.

With a CD reducer Sorcs can chain Disastrous Cascade back to back to back to back. In a fort, because of the aforementioned CD reducer advantage (a SM will never get one off because their only valid targets are shield tanks), they can do this. BWs cannot. They can also have much higher uptime on POS and SK, which is also debuffed and therefore does more damage. They can cycle more Ice Spikes, lay out more GONs. They can elect not to go with the IW CD reducer, etc.

As for Sorc ST damage, the BW equiv of Gloomburst and ID are both Ele and therefore not self-debuffable by the Sorc's spirit tactic. They don't have Hand of Gloom. Withering Heat does less damage than HOR. They don't benefit from a ranged debuffer for their primary damage, either.

Caduceus
Posts: 653

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#134 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:47 pm

teiloh wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:27 pm
Sorcs mainstay AOE is Spirit. But with Corporeal the imbalance is even worse, all you need is one Zealot with a low level tactic and Destro with a BO can drop a zerg's resists down to 0.

The Destro CD reducers are superior because the Choppa and BO can hit them right at the start of a fight where their own group is clumped up. With a SM you have to wait for the SM to run into a suitable target, get their last in chain attack, and actually land the hits needed. It takes 5-6 seconds whereas Destro support and DPS can start their optimal rotations right away without having to risk triggering a cooldown, which just invalidates the whole purpose of CD reducer.

With a CD reducer Sorcs can chain Disastrous Cascade back to back to back to back. In a fort, because of the aforementioned CD reducer advantage (a SM will never get one off because their only valid targets are shield tanks), they can do this. BWs cannot. They can also have much higher uptime on POS and SK, which is also debuffed and therefore does more damage. They can cycle more Ice Spikes, lay out more GONs. They can elect not to go with the IW CD reducer, etc.

As for Sorc ST damage, the BW equiv of Gloomburst and ID are both Ele and therefore not self-debuffable by the Sorc's spirit tactic. They don't have Hand of Gloom. Withering Heat does less damage than HOR. They don't benefit from a ranged debuffer for their primary damage, either.

Let me clarify that I understood your first post to be about Sorc AoE, so that's what I'll stick with. Sorc ST can be left for another time.

The idea that all Sorc needs is a Zealot contradicts your own arguments. According to what you've put forward so far, Sorc needs Magus, Zealot, BO and Choppa to leverage AoE damage that's (supposedly) on par with BW. Even if one would accept the questionable premise that Sorc AoE can match BW AoE, it is obvious, by your own arguments, that there is no way that Sorc can match BW AoE on its own.

I'm sure Sorc can squeeze out some extra damage by picking ideal group setups, but this misses the point. We're now comparing a Sorc supported by an entire group to a BW that's not. This is not a good comparison, and at the same time it speaks volumes about how much stronger BW AoE is.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

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teiloh
Posts: 691

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#135 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:31 pm

Caduceus wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:47 pm Let me clarify that I understood your first post to be about Sorc AoE, so that's what I'll stick with. Sorc ST can be left for another time.

The idea that all Sorc needs is a Zealot contradicts your own arguments. According to what you've put forward so far, Sorc needs Magus, Zealot, BO and Choppa to leverage AoE damage that's (supposedly) on par with BW. Even if one would accept the questionable premise that Sorc AoE can match BW AoE, it is obvious, by your own arguments, that there is no way that Sorc can match BW AoE on its own.

I'm sure Sorc can squeeze out some extra damage by picking ideal group setups, but this misses the point. We're now comparing a Sorc supported by an entire group to a BW that's not. This is not a good comparison, and at the same time it speaks volumes about how much stronger BW AoE is.
It's not on par, but superior damage.

On a strict class vs class basis the Sorc significantly lacks Wildfire, Funnel Power and Flashfire, but they have GoN, SK, Ice Spikes, IW which are all good options. They have options like TTD and IG which, while not beneficial to a Sorc's personal damage output, arguably counterbalance any BW tactic. The argument that BW have 10 feet more radius on ROF as a tactic is basically arguing the merits of a +10 range increase, because ROF/POS do not stack and thus should be spread apart on the battlefield floor.

These would be comparisons in a vacuum. If BW were transported to Destro they would be good contenders for the same spot as Sorc, assuming the same level of group support for their main damage type (Elemental). But in reality:

99% of the time in large-scale, a Sorc will hit with -360-380ish Magus debuff with their most powerful spells; a BW will be lucky to reach -250. When it comes to their secondary resist type, a Sorc can potentially hit -750-800 resists and be doing anywhere from 25-100% more effective damage (0 vs 20-40% resists) than an equivalent Bright Wizard with Corporeal attacks. All this takes is one single optimized Zealot.

70-75% of the time, a Sorc will have some sort of CD reducer through a grouped BO or Choppa. Greenskins are the most overpopulated race for a reason, as all Order can tell you by their kill quests.

emiliorv
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Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#136 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:25 am

Caduceus wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:47 pm
Spoiler:
teiloh wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:27 pm
Sorcs mainstay AOE is Spirit. But with Corporeal the imbalance is even worse, all you need is one Zealot with a low level tactic and Destro with a BO can drop a zerg's resists down to 0.

The Destro CD reducers are superior because the Choppa and BO can hit them right at the start of a fight where their own group is clumped up. With a SM you have to wait for the SM to run into a suitable target, get their last in chain attack, and actually land the hits needed. It takes 5-6 seconds whereas Destro support and DPS can start their optimal rotations right away without having to risk triggering a cooldown, which just invalidates the whole purpose of CD reducer.

With a CD reducer Sorcs can chain Disastrous Cascade back to back to back to back. In a fort, because of the aforementioned CD reducer advantage (a SM will never get one off because their only valid targets are shield tanks), they can do this. BWs cannot. They can also have much higher uptime on POS and SK, which is also debuffed and therefore does more damage. They can cycle more Ice Spikes, lay out more GONs. They can elect not to go with the IW CD reducer, etc.

As for Sorc ST damage, the BW equiv of Gloomburst and ID are both Ele and therefore not self-debuffable by the Sorc's spirit tactic. They don't have Hand of Gloom. Withering Heat does less damage than HOR. They don't benefit from a ranged debuffer for their primary damage, either.
The idea that all Sorc needs is a Zealot contradicts your own arguments. According to what you've put forward so far, Sorc needs Magus, Zealot, BO and Choppa to leverage AoE damage that's (supposedly) on par with BW. Even if one would accept the questionable premise that Sorc AoE can match BW AoE, it is obvious, by your own arguments, that there is no way that Sorc can match BW AoE on its own.

I'm sure Sorc can squeeze out some extra damage by picking ideal group setups, but this misses the point. We're now comparing a Sorc supported by an entire group to a BW that's not. This is not a good comparison, and at the same time it speaks volumes about how much stronger BW AoE is.
Forget all this BS....you need to bring: 1 magus+1zealot+1 choppa/BO to make sorc aoe at same level than BW...the fact that you need all that BS to make their aoe dmg at same level its clear that BW > sorc...

Also, you need to use 3 slots to improve sorc aoe => that means a total 4 slots, so letme ask...in a wb setting wich combo bring more aoe dmg:
-Destro: 1 sorc+1 zealot+1magus+1 choppa/BO
-Order: 4 x BWs => since they not need support to improve their dps you can stack them up

Panodil
Posts: 337

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#137 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:38 am

Dont think anyone will bring a dps zealot atm, hard to find good dps zealots that will carry them self as dps after all nerfs. Same with the Magus.

Can agree that sorcs have great help from team, but so do BW, just the 5% crit from kotbs is a 5% damage increase.
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teiloh
Posts: 691

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#138 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:29 pm

emiliorv wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:25 am
Forget all this BS....you need to bring: 1 magus+1zealot+1 choppa/BO to make sorc aoe at same level than BW...the fact that you need all that BS to make their aoe dmg at same level its clear that BW > sorc...

Also, you need to use 3 slots to improve sorc aoe => that means a total 4 slots, so letme ask...in a wb setting wich combo bring more aoe dmg:
-Destro: 1 sorc+1 zealot+1magus+1 choppa/BO
-Order: 4 x BWs => since they not need support to improve their dps you can stack them up
Do you know how to read?

The Sorc is on par even before considering resists.

But don't act like it's a huge rare occurrence for there to be ONE MAGUS in a fort. Or one Choppa or BO in a group with a Sorc, for that matter. The only big request is a Zealot that picks one tactic and uses it.

Again, because you struggle with simple sentences and are extremely emotional (as well as lacking in basic understanding of game mechanics) I will repeat that Sorcs are on par without them, but pull far ahead with them.

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teiloh
Posts: 691

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#139 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:37 pm

Panodil wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:38 am Dont think anyone will bring a dps zealot atm, hard to find good dps zealots that will carry them self as dps after all nerfs. Same with the Magus.

Can agree that sorcs have great help from team, but so do BW, just the 5% crit from kotbs is a 5% damage increase.
There are tons of tactics that groupmates offer in Destro that far excel over a 5% damage increase. Another Sorc could, for example, give everyone else a 10% damage boost. If it's a Witch Elf instead you can get a +50% crit morale, etc. If there's an AOE blackguard they can increase everyone's chance to be crit by 10%.

The DPS add from the DPS Zealot would be close to +25% for all corp damage btw, and something similar for armor, all while doing OK damage itself.

emiliorv
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Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#140 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:56 pm

teiloh wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:29 pm I will repeat that Sorcs are on par without them, but pull far ahead with them.

Sure mate, your memories from live servers cant be wrong

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