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[Sorc] Suggestions

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Bozzax
Posts: 2156

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#111 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:54 am

https://imgur.com/a/W2C35Yo
So can sorc in top gear beat this or can write off the notion that sorcs do more ST damage based on facts?
2757 DPS over 6.876s
Last edited by Bozzax on Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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ScumFM
Posts: 16

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#112 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:55 am

wonshot wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:38 am
Pugstomping sorc is fine imho. For 6v6 both bw/sorc could use a little love, and for aoe sorc could use a little up while BW could use a little tactic nerf on either wide RoF or maybe longer CD flashfire.
I think you and most of the people asking for Sorc changes here are in agreement then. Small changes are how the devs seem to operate anyway, so a little love for aoe Sorcs is all I am hoping for.
For the 6vs6, I agree, but this is were I see the danger you mentioned, of BW/Sorc turning into total monster. It seems especially difficult to improve their performance in 6vs6 without affecting the place they are in for pugstomping people. That's also why simply buffing things like Shades of Death or Focused Obsession is not ideal.


At the same time Sorc has, disproportional to other classes, many things in her tree that are just lackluster. Ideally, any changes that Sorc gets would be centered around some of these, improving Sorc where she needs it and making underused abilities more attractive at the same time. The m4s are certainly a good target here, particularly the one in the destruction tree. But also an instant Gloom of Night could make an alternative aoe build that forgoes ID to invest into the Calamity tree more popular.

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ScumFM
Posts: 16

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#113 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:16 pm

Bozzax wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:54 am
https://imgur.com/a/W2C35Yo
So can sorc in top gear beat this or can write off the notion that sorcs do more ST damage based on facts?
What have you done with this image, Bombling? :D

Yes, a Sorc can beat this. I could get 2.5k on mine with Shades of Death and Focused Obsession (which can be precast before the dummy starts the actual timer for DPS) and she is not nearly as geared as Bombling is. But this is totally irrelevant: the build and rotation used to get these sorts of numbers only works on dummies .

You use close quarters and frozen fury, build up your m2 by letting another dummy hit you, build up your resource to 100, then walk next to the dummy, pop focused mind and spam your turbo doombolts. This would not work in any serious PvP situation. I suspect Bombling did a few tries with this until he got one where every fireball was a crit.

In terms of actual ST damage, Sorc has 10-20% more damage on 2 spells of the burst rotation and BW has Funnel Power. I suspect once slow boil is fixed, the difference will be neglegtable.
Last edited by ScumFM on Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bozzax
Posts: 2156

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#114 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:17 pm

Would be nice with some facts before we commit to sorc do more ST damage

2 abilities more that benefit from debuff vs stronger procs.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

Atropik
Posts: 592

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#115 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:50 pm

Bozzax wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:17 pm
Would be nice with some facts before we commit to sorc do more ST damage

2 abilities more that benefit from debuff vs stronger procs.
Here they are.
Mez wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:33 pm
Long time sorc and BW player here. I know how sorcs want what the BW has, but its just not possible.

And making gloom of night insta is too powerful. The spell is good, but more importantly did you know each tick counts as an attack? It procs other damage and mindlessly chews up challenge debuffs off you with little effort.

BW can get a ranged knockdown, but it also removes ignite when cast, removing the Corp debuff. Sorcs have disarm, Albeit not close in comparison but not removing spirit debuff is a plus, and engi is ranged vs a magus being not, so ranged disarm isnt bad on a destro toon. I cast all the time in magnet engis and ruin their big rift hopes. I save healers or other ranged from WE's, its good.

Sorcs have a good 4th tactic. Swell of gloom, or chilling gusts are great extra damage to burst rotations. And you have choices which is the big thing. BW usually looks at lame tier 1 tactics to fill, maybe morale boost, emps ward for a random bubble, maybe a buff to flames of rhuin to proc a little more, it kinda sucks. But BW gets funnel power, not as strong, but it kindaaaa negates this trade a LITTLE.

Sorc has a 2 sec ranged snare but its not that hard to get off, and, its actually part of early damage rotation. Thats great. BWs snare and cauterize is where it shines. I can tell you though on my BW, i would still gladly give these to destro for all the damage.

Curently sorcs have that 4th damage tactic I mentioned. But also their entire rotation is spirit damage. Thats crazy. Thats 20% dmg buff for your spells. Chillwind, buffs itself lol. Hello.

BW cannot buff over half of their dmg. Ignite, Detonate, Sear, Fireball barrage, and Nova, BWs big direct damage spells are all elemental. And fire ball obviously.

If you want to really snipe, casting obsessive focus and shades of death are sleepers at a wall. Targets wont even budge.

On my sorc I feel like I kill at will. Nuking at a keep or while zerg surfing is normal. On my 80 full sov BW, most targets walk out of LOS at a keep with 10-20% life having no idea a fully gear maxed BW was just on them.

This isnt even going into BW's Slow Boil (our vision of torment) being broken. It hits for half what sorc's VoT does.

Sorcs, you think you want to trade some stuff but trust me you dont. And if RoR buffed sorcs without BWs in return, it would be a crime.
xd
Nicelook | Obey

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ScumFM
Posts: 16

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#116 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:14 pm

Bozzax wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:17 pm
Would be nice with some facts before we commit to sorc do more ST damage

2 abilities more that benefit from debuff vs stronger procs.
I agree. But it is difficult to get actually relevant numbers for ST damage. You would have to get a BW and a Sorc in the same gear and the same RR points spend and do a statistically relevant number of burst rotations on the dummies, calculate the average damage they do (You can't use the dps the dummy gives you since the relevant damage is how much they can do in one burst, not how fast they can kill the hp-bloated dummy) and then compare. But even then you would have variables. The debuff scales with crit, for example, and funnel power does not. So both the casters chance to crit as well as the targets chance to be crit would be variables.

I had hoped we could commit to "Sorc and BW do very similar ST damage and it is both fine" instead and move on to discussing changes to the aoe specs instead.

Perhaps it would be wise to make an new thread for this, gathering suggestions for changes to Sorc aoe abilities since this one has been muddled in people arguing about ST.

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wonshot
Posts: 722

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#117 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:15 pm

Bozzax wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:17 pm
Would be nice with some facts before we commit to sorc do more ST damage

2 abilities more that benefit from debuff vs stronger procs.
Brightwizard for sure has way stronger availability on tactics for singletarget, amongst the proc tactics.. but you only have 4 slots, and if you are running solo and have to both get Fuel to the Fire+ Ignition (if we go for the arguement of being solo here and not have someone to debuff for you) that leaves you with only two tactic slots available. And that means you cant get 2 proc tactics in on top of Endless knowledge if you are not int softcapped, or you cant get undefendable fireballs or whatever else is getting put up on a pedistal here for some amazing singletarget 6tactic slot bw dominance.

Again, i agree BW has a strong toolbox of tactics, just not as much freedom to use them all at once.

As for the target dummy test, i prebuilt combustion and morale 2 focus mind on a nearby old-school dummy, stood in melee range of the new dummy and soon as i had 100combustion i preloaded a melee swing as time first fireball would connect to the target, i fished for a dummy fight where i only critted and had higher than average procs of Flames of ruin, and made a judgement call when Nova was enough to finish instead of casting the last fireball to cut off a 0.5sec. pretty average pve stuff for sorc/bw when you do dungeons for speedrunning.

Sorc and BW backloaded timestamping is just such an all or nothing way of setting kills up on the foundation. You want to have enough suprice burst to catch your target offguard for them to not being able to break Line of sight or distance before the projectile is in the air, and no guardswap or clense can ruin the combo. Sure a taunt can happen on the mid-cast fireball, you can be detaunted, clensed or guardswapped and the burst will not be enough to solo-snap the target. Yes you can assist and countdown when the burst is happening with a mobile mdps partner or punt into a snap-kill, all done for years. But the foundation of the kill combing for the 5sec setup just makes it very hard to adjust too much without either you dont timestamp any more because of too weak, or you have over adjusted the rotation and created a monster.

also i personally HATE the Bw healdebuff, sure a hd is a hd. but hot danm is it on a long cooldown with a weak sideeffect dmg.
And still waiting for that Flashfire animation fix they mentioned when they randomly buffed Flashfire out of nowhere a year ago and brought it back. :roll:

Burning head should probably also not be a morale drain on a class that can selfpump, to reach a ranged moraledrain from range. but lets instead see other mastery morales being brought up to pair instead of nerfing the few ones used for goofy specs.
INACTIVE
Bombling BW RR 90 [Line by Line] On break atm. Moving house
Alts:Meatbomb SH[invader/royal] Powerhouse Zealot [vanq] Chopling Choppa[invader] Notbombling Sorc [sub40]
Goldbag Engi[invader]Orderling WP[onslaught] TheBombMan Knight [invader]

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Bozzax
Posts: 2156

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#118 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:00 pm

ScumFM wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:14 pm
Bozzax wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:17 pm
Would be nice with some facts before we commit to sorc do more ST damage

2 abilities more that benefit from debuff vs stronger procs.
I agree. But it is difficult to get actually relevant numbers for ST damage. You would have to get a BW and a Sorc in the same gear and the same RR points spend and do a statistically relevant number of burst rotations on the dummies, calculate the average damage they do (You can't use the dps the dummy gives you since the relevant damage is how much they can do in one burst, not how fast they can kill the hp-bloated dummy) and then compare. But even then you would have variables. The debuff scales with crit, for example, and funnel power does not. So both the casters chance to crit as well as the targets chance to be crit would be variables.

I had hoped we could commit to "Sorc and BW do very similar ST damage and it is both fine" instead and move on to discussing changes to the aoe specs instead.

Perhaps it would be wise to make an new thread for this, gathering suggestions for changes to Sorc aoe abilities since this one has been muddled in people arguing about ST.
Personally I think the quality of discussion and possible results improve greatly if we try to bring in facts.

Yep having mixed discussion is counter productive
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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teiloh
Posts: 581

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#119 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:48 pm

Paralyzing Nightmares does respectable damage and has a really long duration root. Destro hated it when it was on the Knight and the Knight still builds M3 slower than Sorc does M4, even if they don't slot their own morale boost and just get it from a Shammy.

Caduceus
Posts: 150

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#120 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:44 am

Honestly, I think on the whole Sorc suffers too harshly for a supposed (disputed?) advantage in ST damage.

In addition to functional M4s, Sorc could really do with a reliable defensive CC to make them at least somewhat more independent. Currently Sorc has no options beyond Arctic Blast and Grip of Fear, both of which have glaring issues.

Arctic Blast isn't really a defensive tool due to its restrictive cast time. 2 seconds of stationary casting is a luxury a Sorc simply cannot afford versus a charging opponent, especially when factoring in that Arctic Blast, AND the curse required to trigger the snare, can be disrupted.

Moreover, if the target is mounted, one runs the risk of hitting with Arctic Blast but failing to dismount.

Grip of Fear has its own problems. For one, it is extremely unreliable in terms of range. My guess is this is because of lag grace, but I could be wrong. In practice this translates into the effective range becoming closer to 5ft (melee range) when casting Grip of Fear on the move. Allowing an enemy to enter within 5ft risks a whole slew of potentially fight-ending CC to be cast on the Sorc.

An even larger problem with Grip of Fear is that it breaks on any damage, rather than direct damage. This is very restrictive for a class like Sorc that relies heavily on DoTs to do damage on the move. Not only that, but even Daemonic Chill damage breaks Grip of Fear, adding another barrier to getting any value out of Grip of Fear.

The result is that the Sorc doesn't just pay for it's supposed advantage in ST damage with a very double-edged class mechanic, but also by having to suffer a complete lack of reliable CC.

In a game where CC is already weak due to the prevalence of snare breaks, gap closers, immunities, etc., I don't see why Sorc should have such weak and unreliable CCs.

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