[Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

[Gareul]

The typical reeee from order or destro that onside is fine is completly short sited and bias borderline retarded tbh. IB does need small buffs and mostly to do with grudge management, getting tired of this destro reeeee because after all these years order getting the reworks and adjustments the very under-performing classes needed.

[Ysaran]

all i see is words and no facts, name of your IB? guild of your IB? all these guilds i continously run with, rescueteam, SMASH, Bitterstone, had good convos with them in VC/pm's multiple times malice,trppie,eisen,bjornmagni among others etc about what IB would need/changes so i compiled it, posted here but the people who dont play IB (like you) keep telling us its fine. maybe you should learn to listen to the skilled IBs who say our ST buffs among other things need tweaking cos theyre underperforming compared to others tanks rather than your personal opinion on a class you dont play.

Nice names: malice,trppie,eisen,bjornmagni. I searched them both on forum and armory and I found zero post/character (exept for Trppie). Where are all these proposal you are talking about? I want to read all the complaint about IB.

the fact you even had to search their names up pretty much goes to show you dont play order/know much about IB.....eisen is one of the higher ups in bitterstones, malice is one of THKs officers, trppie is one GL of THK, bjornmagni is one of the top IBs in SMASH....as for their forums names no clue, but i run cities/premade groups with them regularly and we sit in discord and discuss things, PM ingame, some of them said they have posted suggestions but gave up awhile ago trying.

also nice dodge on answer what your IBs name is and what guild theyre in.

edit: ah nevermind you just updated your bio to show characters. but i guess guild name called requiem is suitable, that guild looks like it died and was burried months ago.

Point is: they don't exist neither on forum or on amory, you could have just make them up as far as I (and everyone else reading) know.
Guild is dead because we are all playing Destru, as I wrote some post ago. When we will have some Sov character on Destru side we will prolly come back.
Still, I played IB longer than you and I plaeyd it in every environment: organized wb, small scale, city, sc, solo ranked, ranked, solo and PvE.
If you have any trouble playing IB feel free to PM me, I will gladly help you

[Parallels66]

Nice names: malice,trppie,eisen,bjornmagni. I searched them both on forum and armory and I found zero post/character (exept for Trppie). Where are all these proposal you are talking about? I want to read all the complaint about IB.

the fact you even had to search their names up pretty much goes to show you dont play order/know much about IB.....eisen is one of the higher ups in bitterstones, malice is one of THKs officers, trppie is one GL of THK, bjornmagni is one of the top IBs in SMASH....as for their forums names no clue, but i run cities/premade groups with them regularly and we sit in discord and discuss things, PM ingame, some of them said they have posted suggestions but gave up awhile ago trying.

also nice dodge on answer what your IBs name is and what guild theyre in.

edit: ah nevermind you just updated your bio to show characters. but i guess guild name called requiem is suitable, that guild looks like it died and was burried months ago.

Point is: they don't exist neither on forum or on amory, you could have just make them up as far as I (and everyone else reading) know.
Guild is dead because we are all playing Destru, as I wrote some post ago. When we will have some Sov character on Destru side we will prolly come back.
Still, I played IB longer than you and I plaeyd it in every environment: organized wb, small scale, city, sc, solo ranked, ranked, solo and PvE.

you can ask garuel the poster above. he also plays with them frequently.

[hammerhead]

It seems to me that you can't just reduce the REA cd to zero, it will be a owerkill. I suggested earlier to improve "Long Reach" so that there is a choice or utility or damage

Extends the reach of Shield Sweep and Rune-Etched Ax by an additional 5 feet and reduce cooldown by 5 seconds.

When paired with SM, this will be more than enough.

Remove the grudge cost from Shield Sweep. It should only generate grudges like Enraged Beating.

Watch An 'Learn could be a WS debuff like Furious Howl.

The effect of Furious Reprisal is negligible, instead increase the force of the knockback by one and a half and the time of knockdown by 1 second.

Oath of Vengeance is completely pointless in a balanced group. And while the auras work as now, nothing can be done with it. Alternatively, you could increase effect of Vengeful Strike by 50% when you have more than 50 grudges by mirroring Terrifying Foe. Although for BG, this is not the best tactic.

The effect of Overprotective must be spread to the whole group to want to take it.

As for the armor, those who do not know the BG Force of Fury stacks with pots. But I don’t know if this applies to DP or not.

Not the best time (after the balance of alpha tanks and engineers up) for any fix. But, I so as to note that I was here.

[Fey]

Nice suggestions Hammerhead. I think the Shield Sweep idea is the best. A little grudge management will go a long way. Runner up goes to group-wide Overprotective.

Like many class trees the specced tactics need some serious attention.

[nuadarstark]

Just to make this clear, are we we really bitching about someone wanting a buff for an IB? A class which still has game breaking tactics bug, a tank that is the "most work" out of all of them and who's ST buffs are at times worse than knight's "set it and leave it" auras? Ok...

But sure, someone who took IB to rr75(lol) and plays destro now said it's fine, so it must be.

[Earthcake]

83 IB here with 82 chosen and 75 BO for comparison.

(forgive any english mistake plz)

If u compare to every other class in the game, IBs are fine.
If u compare to other tanks, IBs r kinda crappy.

Ppl think i refuse to play snb, and it s kinda true. Why ?
SnB IB is pathetic, period. You don t bring anything worthy to a wb.
There is one situation where u r a good tank compared to others : a kiting wb.
How many times r u in a kiting wb ?? 1% of the time ? maybe, and even then, SM is still better than u.

The only thing u can do "ok" is being 2h in a single target party, cuz u bring some ok damage.
Is dmg a primary tank role ? no, but it s something, and something is better than nothing (which is what snb IB brings to a party compared to any other tank) so i prefer going for it.

So it seems that IBs were designed with 2h in mind then.
Well, let s talk damage then, a BO does about 33% higher dps than an IB starting at 100 grudges (based on numbers posted in the dps on constructs thread), while having more utility AND higher tankiness.

So, where are IB good already except basic tanking stuff any tank can do ? I don t know, u tell me.

[Ysaran]

1- currently blackguard can gain their equal of grudge through basic attacks while ironbreakers cannot. first change i propose is to change them to be equal, remove the tactic to gain grudge on attack and make it baseline for ironbreakers aswell. there doesnt seem to be a real reason to me as to why blackguard gets it baseline and ironbreaker doesnt, even if BG has more spenders its still incredibly easy to stay at 100 for them compared to IB, in some smaller situations where more magic users are involved, you cant even buff due to the spellcasts not generating grudge, even if its not as strong as BGs 5 per hit, maybe something like 3 per hit would be gamechanging to IBs so this would just be a standard quality of life change for solo/small scale IBs.

IB has many more way than BG to gain grudge, since BG dosn't slot tactic to do so. Dwarven Riposte alone is enough to keep you at 100 all the time. "Spellcasters don't generate grudge" means nothing. Healers don't generate grudge, but other dps spellcasters generated grudge like other dps, actually they generate even more if you know how to use Runic Shield.

2- Currently ironbreakers knockdown requires a block/parry to use shield of reprisal, my proposal would be remove the parry/block requirement on the knockdown and increase the cooldown from 10 to 13 seconds. with how organised content can be, there is sometimes a chance that your guard may be targeted and you getting ignored/dps calling on a target on a healer and you may need to assist, having a on demand knockdown would GREATLY help SnB ironbreakers utility in larger group content.

This has no sense for two reasons
1) You already have a on-demand knockdown in left tree so in order to remove parry/block rquirement from Shield Of Reprisal you have to either:
1. remove Cave In from the game and rework the left tree, which is fine as mastery tree and doesn't need a rework.
Or
2. don't remove Cave In and have a tank with 2 on-demand knockdown, wich is OP af and totally ridiculous
2) In order to use shield Of Reprisal you have just to parry, which happen quite often thank to guard damage. Actually if your guardee is getting focused you will have Shueld Of Reprisal up al the time since you will get a lot of parries on guard damages

3- Blackguards currently have a "spammable" AoE with monstrous rending, my idea would be up the cost of shield sweep from 10 to 20 grudge, remove the cooldown of 10seconds and remove the grudge building on it and make it do some form of magic damage. if the on hit grudge building was added to IB aswell, i think this would be a nice change to try and make the IBs AoE damage better, pretty much every other tank in the game does some form of magic damage, be it elemental or spirit etc while IB/BG doesnt have any, so this may be a nice Quality of life change to help with AoE damage output.

IB doesn't need magic damage, stack WS and you will do just fine. With Watch An' Learn up you can reach quite good WS value. Shield Sweep is actually a good way to to gain grudge since it repays its grudge cost by hitting at least one target. Use it on CD and you will be always full of grudge. Shield Sweep has been buffed few month ago (You were not here I think, like August or so) so there's no chance they will buff it again.
Also Monstrous Rending isn't really spammable. It cost too much Hate to be spammed, if you want to spam it you have to build around it and you would have an almost useless, one-button BG.

4- currently, IB has the *worst* punt out of any tank in the game, blackguards have a insane golfswing punt, BO/SM have AoE, chosen and kotbs have the huge airtime/length punt when tacticed while IBs is very very lacking. currently the IB punt doesnt even punt a target out of guard range half the time due to the low air height of the punt meaning the IB has to position more to use its punt effectively compared to other tanks who can just punt when needed due to the terrain and landscape and height defaults of their punt. a simple fix to this would be to make it more similar to the chosen/kotbs punts, give the IB punt more air time so they can punt targets out of guard range more consistantly even if for a moment.

IB punt is one of the best punt in game. You don't have to slot a tactic to make it worthy and it cost few grudges (with Dwarve Riposte you have to parry just once). AoE punt has very limited utility since it will give immunity to everyone, basicly is usefull only in funnels or near a clif. BG punt must be charged or is pure ****.
I don't even know how you can came up with this->"IB punt doesnt even punt a target out of guard range". I've never had problem punting ppl out of guard range (and neither do any IB I know and play with). Provide a video or some kind of hard proof of this statement or this is just the emblem of you incompetence as a tank.

5- An idea i had was to maybe make the IB buffs AoE around your oath friend something like 50yard range around your oath friend allied party members would also get the buffs, maybe at a slighly reduced quality? currently kotbs/chosen give buffs with higher numbers in an AoE while debuffing aswell compared to IBs single target buffs, a change like this would still keep the skill cap of maintaining buffs and keep oath friend swapping to maintain stronger buffs upon a target.

You must be kidding. I mean +25% parry Aoe buff? 900 damages AoE absorb bubble? +10% crit chance and +60 strenght AoE buff AT MASTERY 5PT? really?!?! That's just unbelivable. You have to buff just the 2 dps you have in party most of the time, just switch the Oath Friends between them while AoE attacks are on CD. To swiftly switch the Oath Friend use the click-casting feature of Enemy and it will be a piece of cake.

6- IB buffs currently do not stack with pots meaning alot of IBs effectiveness is greatly reduced/replaced by basic pots/linements, the engineers armor buff which stacks with pots currently due to it being a enchantment, with this i came up with the idea of making *some* of the IBs buffs into enchantments to increase the overall effectiveness of the buffs, making them more wanted/needed in a larger group enviroment rather than just being replaced by basic consumables.

Your buffs don't stack with pots? who cares, it's actually better. No Vangeful Strike mean more grudge for you. If you use Guarded Attack instead of armor pots then you can use spike armor post (Bristle/Bramble/Briar Ointment) and deal lots of damages. Isnpiring Attack gives huge amount of Willpower which increase the heals granted by Grumble An' Mutter. Also you don't want them to by enchantment because enchantment can be shattered (both BG and BO can shatter enchantments). If you use Grumble An' Mutter you can use the Wounds and Healing Power liniment since Healing Power stack with Willpower

7- Turn some of IBs damaging spells into some form of magic damage, currently IB/BG are the only tanks in the game which do 0 magic damage, with RoR compared to live the armor creep is much greater here due to armor pots not existing on live or armor talis not being as valued, so the combination of both makes it so anything doing pure physical damage is massively left behind due to reduction cap for physical being 75% reduction and magic being only 45%, so any tank doing some form of magic damage massively outscales pure physical damage tanks in a larger enviroment when fluff damage pressure is needed to hit that critical mass to get kills. even from a lore perspective it doesnt really make much sense IBs not having some form of magic damage due to them suppost to be using rune engraved and forged weapons and gromril armor.

Again this is nonsense. Both Chosen and Kotbs deal less damage than IB/BG even having some magic damage skills. SM deals more damage than every other tank but it has less utility so it's fine. BO deal same amount of damage of BG/IB so IB damage dosn't need any buff. Again: stack WS and you will see the damage.

8- Currently IB is the only tank in the game without proper debuffing tools, the only debuffs IBs have currently are the baseline tank armor debuff (which unless 100 grudge is negated by a basic armor pot) and a heal debuff which is talented, kotbs/chosen debuff just by existing, SM debuffs a flat % damage etc etc, it might be worth turning some of our buff tools into slight debuff tools aswell, as an example, vengeful strike buffs the IB and oath friends toughness by 75 default, why not add another element to it by debuffing the targets toughness by the same amount aswell. (just a quick off the top of head idea)

The armour debuff is standard for all tank that have it. Put some mastery point in left tree and your debuff will grow up. You have very high AoE snare. You forgot Kneecapper, wich is strong af. -20% crit chance is alot and it also have really low CD. And you forgot Punishing Blow, which, again, is pretty strong. Outgoing healdebuff is strong af since it stack with incoming healdebuff, a tactic is the right price for this feature since others tanks don't even have any kind of healdebuff.
You seem to know very little about this class, can you repeat the name of your IB please?

Honestly what I get from you post is that you know only the IB and you also know very little of it. All your belief on BG (and others tanks in general) are basicly wrong and too naive.
IB is a defensive tank and most of your complain are about that (no grudge on attack, few debuff). This is the IB mechanic and you can't change it or ou would completly twist the class. You seem to not have a wide view of the game. Stick around for some time, try other classes and play other roles. You will see how silly are your proposal.

That said, I may agree that IB may need some tweak. It has a lot of useless tactic (as pointed out by Hammerhead) that would need some change but this is true for every other class in the game so I don't think it worth much.

[Parallels66]

1- currently blackguard can gain their equal of grudge through basic attacks while ironbreakers cannot. first change i propose is to change them to be equal, remove the tactic to gain grudge on attack and make it baseline for ironbreakers aswell. there doesnt seem to be a real reason to me as to why blackguard gets it baseline and ironbreaker doesnt, even if BG has more spenders its still incredibly easy to stay at 100 for them compared to IB, in some smaller situations where more magic users are involved, you cant even buff due to the spellcasts not generating grudge, even if its not as strong as BGs 5 per hit, maybe something like 3 per hit would be gamechanging to IBs so this would just be a standard quality of life change for solo/small scale IBs.

IB has many more way than BG to gain grudge, since BG dosn't slot tactic to do so. Dwarven Riposte alone is enough to keep you at 100 all the time. "Spellcasters don't generate grudge" means nothing. Healers don't generate grudge, but other dps spellcasters generated grudge like other dps, actually they generate even more if you know how to use Runic Shield.

incorrect as runic shield with 11 points into the tree absorbs 895. which ill be usually 1 spell cast to remove it. so its a netlose of grudge 90% of the time. you also cannot slot the useless parry for grudge tactics because the class is already so far behind other tanks you need punishing knock and told ya so 100% leaving on 2 tactic slots which are already accounted for.


2- Currently ironbreakers knockdown requires a block/parry to use shield of reprisal, my proposal would be remove the parry/block requirement on the knockdown and increase the cooldown from 10 to 13 seconds. with how organised content can be, there is sometimes a chance that your guard may be targeted and you getting ignored/dps calling on a target on a healer and you may need to assist, having a on demand knockdown would GREATLY help SnB ironbreakers utility in larger group content.

This has no sense for two reasons
1) You already have a on-demand knockdown in left tree so in order to remove parry/block rquirement from Shield Of Reprisal you have to either:
1. remove Cave In from the game and rework the left tree, which is fine as mastery tree and doesn't need a rework.
Or
2. don't remove Cave In and have a tank with 2 on-demand knockdown, wich is OP af and totally ridiculous
2) In order to use shield Of Reprisal you have just to parry, which happen quite often thank to guard damage. Actually if your guardee is getting focused you will have Shueld Of Reprisal up al the time since you will get a lot of parries on guard damages

the on demand knock down also REQUIRES A GREAT WEAPON the other knock down REQUIRES A SHIELD. so the only on demand CC the entire class has is using a 2h and talented. but yes the left tree could 100% use a rework. so no IB could have 2 on demand knockdowns. so your point is kinda irrelevant there.


3- Blackguards currently have a "spammable" AoE with monstrous rending, my idea would be up the cost of shield sweep from 10 to 20 grudge, remove the cooldown of 10seconds and remove the grudge building on it and make it do some form of magic damage. if the on hit grudge building was added to IB aswell, i think this would be a nice change to try and make the IBs AoE damage better, pretty much every other tank in the game does some form of magic damage, be it elemental or spirit etc while IB/BG doesnt have any, so this may be a nice Quality of life change to help with AoE damage output.

IB doesn't need magic damage, stack WS and you will do just fine. With Watch An' Learn up you can reach quite good WS value. Shield Sweep is actually a good way to to gain grudge since it repays its grudge cost by hitting at least one target. Use it on CD and you will be always full of grudge. Shield Sweep has been buffed few month ago (You were not here I think, like August or so) so there's no chance they will buff it again.
Also Monstrous Rending isn't really spammable. It cost too much Hate to be spammed, if you want to spam it you have to build around it and you would have an almost useless, one-button BG.

you cant stack WP as a SnB IB. SnB SMs do currently over 3x the dps to the new dummies compared to SnB IBs. hell a 2h IB with a *realistic* rotation keeping buffs up etc does less dps to new dummies than a SnB SM. also you will never be full of grudge using shield sweep on CD. 10sec CD with a 10 grudge cost with a max of 50 gain, so 40 gain overall. 1 runic shield is 30 grudge. 1 application of parry/crit which is on a 10 second duration is 15 each so 30 total grudge. you will only be 10 grudge gain AT BEST if you arent using ANY other buffs. also IBs grudge gain LOWERS the more you have, so even if you are building up grudge nicely once you start spending and gaining constantly its not a smooth cycle like a blackguards. a blackguard can easily play full hate if it wants, an IB can never play at full grudge. BG skills also require 30/60/90 hate to be full effectiveness while IBs are 25/50/75/100....that 100 grudge buff is basically nonexistant.


4- currently, IB has the *worst* punt out of any tank in the game, blackguards have a insane golfswing punt, BO/SM have AoE, chosen and kotbs have the huge airtime/length punt when tacticed while IBs is very very lacking. currently the IB punt doesnt even punt a target out of guard range half the time due to the low air height of the punt meaning the IB has to position more to use its punt effectively compared to other tanks who can just punt when needed due to the terrain and landscape and height defaults of their punt. a simple fix to this would be to make it more similar to the chosen/kotbs punts, give the IB punt more air time so they can punt targets out of guard range more consistantly even if for a moment.

IB punt is one of the best punt in game. You don't have to slot a tactic to make it worthy and it cost few grudges (with Dwarve Riposte you have to parry just once). AoE punt has very limited utility since it will give immunity to everyone, basicly is usefull only in funnels or near a clif. BG punt must be charged or is pure ****.
I don't even know how you can came up with this->"IB punt doesnt even punt a target out of guard range". I've never had problem punting ppl out of guard range (and neither do any IB I know and play with). Provide a video or some kind of hard proof of this statement or this is just the emblem of you incompetence as a tank.

IB punt is not one of the best punts in the game by any means. costs grudge which we are already starving for if buffing effectively, it has similar range than some of tanks punts (65ft) but the target doesnt get much height, hell even a untacticed kotbs/chosen punt is 45?ft i believe and then tacticed its super high punt which takes someone out the fight for atleast a good 5 seconds due to the airtime, so unless you're fighting on a perfectly flat area or next to a cliff (which any punt will work then) 70% of the time it gets cucked by terrain as it doesnt have the verticality or golf swing mega punt values like blackguard. if its verticality got upped by maybe 10-15% it would be fine imo.


5- An idea i had was to maybe make the IB buffs AoE around your oath friend something like 50yard range around your oath friend allied party members would also get the buffs, maybe at a slighly reduced quality? currently kotbs/chosen give buffs with higher numbers in an AoE while debuffing aswell compared to IBs single target buffs, a change like this would still keep the skill cap of maintaining buffs and keep oath friend swapping to maintain stronger buffs upon a target.

You must be kidding. I mean +25% parry Aoe buff? 900 damages AoE absorb bubble? +10% crit chance and +60 strenght AoE buff AT MASTERY 5PT? really?!?! That's just unbelivable. You have to buff just the 2 dps you have in party most of the time, just switch the Oath Friends between them while AoE attacks are on CD. To swiftly switch the Oath Friend use the click-casting feature of Enemy and it will be a piece of cake.

im fine with parry buff/bubble/crit buff not being AoE but the basekite buffs are pathetically weak in comparison to everything else currently, most of them you could essentially remove from your buffing rotation and nothing would be any different, str buff is marginally better than a pot/RP buff, armor buff is 200-300 better than armor pot, toughness buff is WAY worse than kotbs/chosen buff/debuff aura, which im also believe stack with other toughness debuffs/stat steals. the only real reason you would take an IB over any tank ingame is to buff a slayer parry/crit OR be a complete AP battery.


6- IB buffs currently do not stack with pots meaning alot of IBs effectiveness is greatly reduced/replaced by basic pots/linements, the engineers armor buff which stacks with pots currently due to it being a enchantment, with this i came up with the idea of making *some* of the IBs buffs into enchantments to increase the overall effectiveness of the buffs, making them more wanted/needed in a larger group enviroment rather than just being replaced by basic consumables.

Your buffs don't stack with pots? who cares, it's actually better. No Vangeful Strike mean more grudge for you. If you use Guarded Attack instead of armor pots then you can use spike armor post (Bristle/Bramble/Briar Ointment) and deal lots of damages. Isnpiring Attack gives huge amount of Willpower which increase the heals granted by Grumble An' Mutter. Also you don't want them to by enchantment because enchantment can be shattered (both BG and BO can shatter enchantments). If you use Grumble An' Mutter you can use the Wounds and Healing Power liniment since Healing Power stack with Willpower

inspiring attack is going to be in the 150-200 willpower region most of the time which is basically nullvoid resistance to spellcaster disrupt as they dont have high enough base willpower for that disrupt to outweigh the int the casters have meaning they basically have 0 disrupt anyways unless through RR points. willpower healing scaling is also so **** bad in game the difference it makes to grumble and mutter is at a full 300-400 willpower buff maybe an extra 20healing per tick....its honestly so little i dont even notice it. thorns pots *arent* a lot of damage but when a thorns pots is probably 1/3 of a classes damage due to how **** little it does because lack of any form of scaling i would say thats a pretty big class issue. also i have tested the healing power liniment with GnM, the +50 healing power made a huge difference of 4 extra healing per tick and the fact you even suggest using a healing power lini on a IB really downplays your arguement.

7- Turn some of IBs damaging spells into some form of magic damage, currently IB/BG are the only tanks in the game which do 0 magic damage, with RoR compared to live the armor creep is much greater here due to armor pots not existing on live or armor talis not being as valued, so the combination of both makes it so anything doing pure physical damage is massively left behind due to reduction cap for physical being 75% reduction and magic being only 45%, so any tank doing some form of magic damage massively outscales pure physical damage tanks in a larger enviroment when fluff damage pressure is needed to hit that critical mass to get kills. even from a lore perspective it doesnt really make much sense IBs not having some form of magic damage due to them suppost to be using rune engraved and forged weapons and gromril armor.

Again this is nonsense. Both Chosen and Kotbs deal less damage than IB/BG even having some magic damage skills. SM deals more damage than every other tank but it has less utility so it's fine. BO deal same amount of damage of BG/IB so IB damage dosn't need any buff. Again: stack WS and you will see the damage.

SnB kotbs actually does *MORE* damage than SnB IB currently with the new elemental damage changes they got a few weeks ago, SnB chosen 100% do more damage than SnB IB without even a question due to the offensive nature of that tank and spirit damage. so that arguement is out of the window. if you think BOs are doing the same kinda tier of damage as IB/BG you must be playing with some extremely scuffed BOs, BO is so far and beyond other tanks atm its not even a question. ive seen khazrogg do top damage done in cities with a 2h black orc...AGAIN IBs cannot stack weapon skill as SnB and even as 2h IB usually has to stack alot of strength with WS mixed in when possible though i do believe the usual is stacking strength and melee power and just going for crit due to how GBF works among other things.



8- Currently IB is the only tank in the game without proper debuffing tools, the only debuffs IBs have currently are the baseline tank armor debuff (which unless 100 grudge is negated by a basic armor pot) and a heal debuff which is talented, kotbs/chosen debuff just by existing, SM debuffs a flat % damage etc etc, it might be worth turning some of our buff tools into slight debuff tools aswell, as an example, vengeful strike buffs the IB and oath friends toughness by 75 default, why not add another element to it by debuffing the targets toughness by the same amount aswell. (just a quick off the top of head idea)

The armour debuff is standard for all tank that have it. Put some mastery point in left tree and your debuff will grow up. You have very high AoE snare. You forgot Kneecapper, wich is strong af. -20% crit chance is alot and it also have really low CD. And you forgot Punishing Blow, which, again, is pretty strong. Outgoing healdebuff is strong af since it stack with incoming healdebuff, a tactic is the right price for this feature since others tanks don't even have any kind of healdebuff.
You seem to know very little about this class, can you repeat the name of your IB please?

the armor debuff isnt standard for every tank for one, only BG/IB has it and its less than armor pot value in armor shred unless you debuff at 100 grudge which never happens, and if you go left tree as SnB IB you dont have the basic tools you need to play SnB due to it being so far behind other tanks you needing to be a AP battery in organised content. even if you gave up some talents like GnM you would ONLY get an extra 2 points to spend in that tree after you got the other manditory things you need to even be invited to organised content in the first place. the AoE snare is nice, but other classes can do it in a cone effect at a longer range for the same tier of slow, so its effectiveness is greatly reduced cos of that. punishing knock is super good yes, its basically 1 of 4 things you take IB for, other being AP battery, crit buff, parry buff. and you talk down to people alot for someone who doesnt even play the class or faction and doesnt understand the basic concepts of what is wrong with the class despite all these other IB players disagreeing with you in this thread. wonder why that is...and yes my IBs name is Belegarrn in the guild reforged, before you whine some more you wont be able to find me in the armory for some reason and i dont know why...i cant even look myself up there.

Honestly what I get from you post is that you know only the IB and you also know very little of it. All your belief on BG (and others tanks in general) are basicly wrong and too naive.
IB is a defensive tank and most of your complain are about that (no grudge on attack, few debuff). This is the IB mechanic and you can't change it or ou would completly twist the class. You seem to not have a wide view of the game. Stick around for some time, try other classes and play other roles. You will see how silly are your proposal.


this statement right here basically nullvoids your entire arguement, you're argueing about a class you do not play or know anything about it seems, despite other people who actively play IB at a higher level who have posted here, including earthcake above who is pretty well know and extremely good at IB disagreeing with you. IB is a defensive tank with less defensive purpose than the offensive tanks currently. THATS THE ISSUE. all the *defensive* qualities IB brings is replaced at a higher quality by other classes bar 2 buffs and 1 healing debuff OR basic consumables while the other classes having higher utility,higher damage, better group focus and support. why do you think EVERY IB in organised content is just turned into a guard and oathfriend the slayer AP/parry/crit battery bot. because IB doesnt fill any role or do anything better than any other tank except for the *1* specific class. IB is currently the most underperforming tank in game currently without a question or doubt. but ill stop feeding the troll who clearly doesnt play the class or understand the basics of its mechanics and the fundamental issues with it.

[priestxes]

You kind of show how little you know with point 2. BG has two knockdowns. 1 requires a great weapon and is in the left tree, 1 requires a block. A block. Not a block or parry. A block. I'd argue you're chances of proccing a block or parry is much higher than just a block. But I've never had issues getting it to light up.