What justifies this ?

[Sinisterror]

"PS: if you check out that screenshot you will see 5 slayers. That's 5 Slayers in the same discord using Rampage at the same time, applying undefendable damage on everyone in their path at the same time.
Seriously brother, do Destro cities. If you haven't meet this you haven't lived. "

This + guard dmg is really the issue with rampage, at least make rampage only working on single target skills +15 seconds instead of 20 seconds up time. Something like slayers/choppas automatically having pent up rage effect when using 2handers without tactic would make sense, and with tactic increase the stack to 4 and when you consume stack when furious next auto attack dmg will have 75 % dmg increase not 25%. Only when using 2 hander.

[Ysaran]

I want also to point out that the undefendable guard damage generated by Rampage doesn't appear on sc/city damage sheet- Which means that the damage dealt by slayer is much much higher than what reported

[Gurf]

Ok last 3 Cities I have seen: today 5-5 , last EU Prime 11-10 to Order, one before that 11-9 in Destro favour. Where is this game breaking problem? Looks far more balanced than it has ever been to me.

Basically Rampage/ID and its procs only rack up a load of damage if everyone is clumped up together, I know that is the default Destro way to play as it has been so effective for so long but maybe you need to try find a counter other than clump up into a Melee ball when on that rare occasion you have to fight a Slayer stacked group?

The amount of times I have played City and come up against a Destro melee ball is crazy, we had to try all sorts of things like trying to kite them away, try split up into two groups, bring extra AM for MOM slow, its actually easier for Destro to do these things as they don't have GTDC pulling you in all the time and Dozens of Shammy sticky feeting the blob. Tanks learn to Sever Rampage, healers group cleansing ID, Invader set bonus Proc on healer armour can remove it. All sorts of options to try counter, is anyone even trying?

[Manatikik]

I want also to point out that the undefendable guard damage generated by Rampage doesn't appear on sc/city damage sheet- Which means that the damage dealt by slayer is much much higher than what reported

Rampage is less of a big deal in city due to how it functions. If you are having very fast fights or long fights then Rampage isn’t very impactful. The only time it’s amazing is if you are in choke points (keeps/forts) or a 60s fight then it’s not great due to the fact that it takes about 15s before you can deal decent damage with rampage up and it will only give about 10s of good damage during its uptime and to reset it a second time in a fight relieve all pressure from Slayers and let’s you reset. It also takes at most 2-3 GCD from a BO to shatter it and they have around -10s from the time it’s cast until the Slayer gets to red and deal any damage.

The real reason Slayer is so good in city is that ID can cover their AoE sustain and let them ST targets with retribution channels for coordinated AoE burst. Issue is most destro aren’t good enough at the game nor have any sort of situational awareness to why this is so strong and just cry about Rampage (which is strong but not what makes slayer so good in cities).

[Deaves]

You could make this comparison with every single class. As for now, destro is ahead in every aspects but 2 (rampage for slayers and funnel power for fireclowns). All other scenarios, i would state is favorable for destro (even after morale change).

Choppa was weaker than Slayer, last change made choppa into a meme, utterly useless career atm.

so this implies that slayer is far more usefull/stronger than choppa atm ?

[Deaves]

Everyone needs to stop looking at classes as an individual or in comparison to their mirror. This is a group game, and what matters is how they synergize with the other classes in their factions. What do they contribute to a small group/warband/zerg?

Just as an example, many would argue Slayers put out higher numbers than Choppa, primarily due to very strong abilities like ID and Rampage. But what about how impactful "Chop Fasta!" is, which seems to get neglected from every discussion comparing the two? Sure, Slayer's kit lends itself to a more powerful singular class, but Choppa lends itself better to a group.

im not talking dmg, im talking and asking about abilitys and mirroring and chop fasta has an direct mirror on the slayer tree that increses CD on the target, witch makes 100% sense for a mirror ability, chop fasta counters it, and dmg output is kinda the whole idea of the class. since dmg the only class mechaning is based around DMG and maneging it with serten buffs/dumps to increse that, and to compare a 75AP GCD vs 20 sec of undefendeble AoE dmg spam is quite the huge diffrence for a 5 point mastery spell.

[Gurf]

Everyone needs to stop looking at classes as an individual or in comparison to their mirror. This is a group game, and what matters is how they synergize with the other classes in their factions. What do they contribute to a small group/warband/zerg?

Just as an example, many would argue Slayers put out higher numbers than Choppa, primarily due to very strong abilities like ID and Rampage. But what about how impactful "Chop Fasta!" is, which seems to get neglected from every discussion comparing the two? Sure, Slayer's kit lends itself to a more powerful singular class, but Choppa lends itself better to a group.

im not talking dmg, im talking and asking about abilitys and mirroring and chop fasta has an direct mirror on the slayer tree that increses CD on the target, witch makes 100% sense for a mirror ability, chop fasta counters it, and dmg output is kinda the whole idea of the class. since dmg the only class mechaning is based around DMG and maneging it with serten buffs/dumps to increse that, and to compare a 75AP GCD vs 20 sec of undefendeble AoE dmg spam is quite the huge diffrence for a 5 point mastery spell.

You could make dozens of comparisons like this across nearly all classes, unless looked at as a whole its pointless. You can also point to all sorts of disparities, for example Greenskin racial wounds tactic can give Choppa some extra survivability, especially when gearing up, while the Dwarf racial armour tactic is negated by the Slayer mechanic making it pretty much useless. Also if you actually play a Slayer you quickly realise that being starved of AP can be a big problem, especially in long drawn out fights when you are likely getting drained by a Shaman, if you have no AP you can't do damage, try play as Slayer Champ in stage 3 of City and see how much AP you have to fight.

[Deaves]

You could make dozens of comparisons like this across nearly all classes, unless looked at as a whole its pointless. You can also point to all sorts of disparities, for example Greenskin racial wounds tactic can give Choppa some extra survivability, especially when gearing up, while the Dwarf racial armour tactic is negated by the Slayer mechanic making it pretty much useless. Also if you actually play a Slayer you quickly realise that being starved of AP can be a big problem, especially in long drawn out fights when you are likely getting drained by a Shaman, if you have no AP you can't do damage, try play as Slayer Champ in stage 3 of City and see how much AP you have to fight.

yeah im sure its possible to make this to almost all classes/spells, and AP is the same issue for choppas if not more since u are forced to keep CF up at every 40 sec witch is 45AP + all our aoe are channeling meaning they are not regenerating any AP during the cast and are very easy to stop if u have tanks with somewhat of a brain when to interrupt things, puts/Knockdownds/taunts, pop that when u see a choppa wanting to take of with gtdc or starting to swing with bring da pain and u deny all of its dmg, wile the slayer have all that dmg up from a passive dot 360 degrees, and is able to AA + cast ST spells, and yeah, AMs also have AP drain so its not rly any difference at all

[Deaves]

i see ALOT of good posts in here witch i, very happy with, i learned alot and most of u seem to have a somewhat agreement with what is better than what, but the abilitys that is highlighted are not the once i was asking about tbh.. and the discussion seems to drift off focusing on cd reduction and IB or gtdc, i also learned that rampage provides undefended attacks towards ur guard witch is kinda broken if u ask me, literately renders the ability twice as strong.

this might seem as a cry but its rly not, i enjoy when its a top cat vs underdog situation and u have to actually use ur abilitys to accomplish thing.

i mainly want to play 2hand choppa due to all the CC and utility, im not a fan of spamming 1 ability and "winning" its not the part of the game i enjoy at all.. but since getting dem royals is the only way to get any decent gear.

anyway, thanks for all the time u put in ur posts i like reading it, it helps me alot since i havent played this game in almost 14 years and its great to be back

[Schweedy]

Spoiler:

Funny that you forgot that BO has U Wot - unbreakable/unshatterable (!!!!) ALLAROUND (+damage, + def, + resisit/armor buff) that lasts 20 seconds, requires nothing (0 stance) and has laughable drawback of - 20% movespeed for 10 seconds of its downtime

Also Dragon Talon tactic does not work since 2018(Bug report still there), but whatever

Is BO tankier?
Well, when under U Wot and Cant Hit Me, BO stands in the Fort lord room entrance and cant be killed by order OP rdd.

Resistances are hardcapped at 50% and Morale Damage cannot be mitigated or defended against. Morale damage being the measuring stick of most successful large RvR engagements, I find it difficult to believe that a BO with Heavy Brawler (2Hander spec) is a match for Order range DPS within a Keep/Fort while holding a doorway. Are you serious? For a 14 point Investment Ability in the Brawler Tree, I believe You Wot! is not as Earth-shattering as it seems, especially for a meager 10% damage buff for 20 seconds (melee).

Dragon's Talon is a massive aid against Destro Melee Trains with it's nearly 100% uptime + AoE damage debuff. The only thing defective about the Raking Talons Tactic is the damage portion, which may be by design from the developers to curb excessive Magic AoE spam,especially from a melee class that can AoE debuff magic resistance to its own damage and that of other classes (like the AM, WL, and WP). The language for the tactic is also curiously vague, so take that as you will. But the -dmg% debuff is fully functional with multiple mobs.

Dragon talons with tactic = 20% reduced dmg output for 4 secs on everyone in 20 ft of target, no cd.
BO has Ya missed me, undefendable attack reduces one target's physical damage by 20% for 10 sec, requires block, 20 sec cd.

Please enlighten me where this BO best career in game ability is? Quite sure KotBS is the best tank in the game, and that that is the general consensus.

By the way Rapzel. Not sure if you were aware, but Dragon's Talon does also stack with Challenge (Total -50% damage reduction). Raking Talons Tactic debuff is still fully operational, so you can still apply it the within an AoE, but without the AoE damage the tactic may suggest(?). DT is also stackable with Distracting Bellows but at a -60% AoE Damage Reduction not -70% like you would think for some reason. Screenshot below with SM testing.

Spoiler:

The same math should apply to BO's Ya Missed Me, but have yet to test it.