What justifies this ?

[carlos]

From a WB perspective.
Wind block is gone. RP is slowly and steadily climbing ahead of zealot in utility.
Marauder damage is in line with WL when it comes to AoE, has some nice debuffs and utility but lacks mobility.
SH Vs. SW is a wash where one is melee the other is ranged.
Choppa was weaker than Slayer, last change made choppa into a meme, utterly useless career atm.
KotBS out-classes chosen in every department except when it comes to damage output.
SM has more utility than BO atm making SM better.
IB is a bit better than BG atm in wbs, at least when it comes to SnB specs. (Ap and buffs mainly)
BW out-classes sorc in WBs easily.

Magi do more damage than Engis, but neither of the careers are prio one in any wbs tbh, engi instead brings a little bit more utility (cannon smash/keg/corp debuff) but neither career is over the top, both have their own strengths. The strength is in the hands of the player not career.

WE/WH, WE wins in any group play IMHO.

WP/DoK WP is the stronger healer, DoK has M2 cleanse and better auras (Utility). Don't think there's a huge imbalance between the careers rarely see people whine about why is WP>DoK or other way around except when it comes to DPS.

Shaman/AM, shaman easier to use utility and better survivability, AM more heal and the better debuff. Both are needed for puddle. AM 0.5 cast increaser is also really strong. Shaman might have the edge though because survivability and easier to use morale pump. Quite sad to see the careers as healers almost die once again because of the morale nerf, but it is what it is.

Does destro have a wider array of careers that are great in 6 man? Yes I would say destro have more overtuned careers for small scale than order atm.
WB? Order smashes every thing atm, you don't think there's a reason why Altdorf was at 5* for almost a week?

Destro has more melee and used to have better "WB melee" (nothing came close to slayer but that was the only really functional order melee dps as well).
As destro "melee ball" (can't play this way on destro anyway because LUL slayers) keeps getting nerfed, ranged will need to take their spots but the issue is, destro doesn't have the "ranged Slayer" to counter orders better "WB ranged".

We're in month 6 of almost constant order zerg to IC, it's one of the longest zergs this server has seen. (Destro zerg time has been increased from 2 hrs to 5 hrs a day though).
Three forts active yesterday with 0 wins for destro, and there was quite a few destro premades actually trying.

With the change to choppa I hope the next career to get gutted is engi, because even though Magus is stronger, you see so many more engis than magi, and it just makes as much sense as nerfing choppa and not touching Slayers.

Would be great if the bias wouldn't shine through so bright... because leaving out that destro got incoming heal debuff on chosen while order got outgoing is pretty much the only thing that have to be said about that.

The old myth about order having higher flat dmd output is very few who still believe in, while having incoming heal debuff, more and better cc, self pump and earlier usable morale drain is too much.

When one faction got self pump without even have to actually participating in the actual fight (except the obvious, to get "into combat"), i don't think that anyone sane would argue the differ but i'm sure i will be proven wrong in this regard.

And you think 25% healdebuff non stacking
and a wounds debuff makes up for vigilance, block, crit for group, aoe snare and increased healing that does stack?
You're among the select few that think chosen is better than KotBS in that case.

Close bond? Or is summoning pet too hard for you?
I know no one runs it because it's bad but that's not the tactics fault it's the fact that morale bomb got nerfed and loner is now the build for WB lion, get into 2020.
Game was full of mSH before morale nerf now there's a handful, what do you think happened?

But good job providing proof of my bias by saying mSH self pump is OP and that type of self pump is only available to destro.

Bout as smart as IF I would call you out on order bias because WL has pet and mara doesn't.

Oh and WL has out going healdebuff mSH zero healdebuffs, must make WL much more OP than mSH with your logic.

Your assumption is 100% based upon that im an order player.... when i only play destro

EDIT: also claiming that absolute best class in the game, Black Orc, is inferior to SM says alot

[Sundowner]

this topic is going to be so so so so biased

[Ysaran]

Hey'all ! hope the lot of u's havin a great day !

I was looking over mastery ability's of alot of classes and mirrors and came across the Slayer/Choppa once called Keep on Choppi'n and Rampage, Im sure most of u know what they are doin but ill type it out,

Choppa one is a 20 sec CD with the base tooltip dmg of 131(with only lvl 40 stats) and costs 25AP and the effect restores a 100AP witch adds to an effective 75AP and it removes ur berserk stage, no alternative effect if ur red or yellow.

Slayer one is a 30 sec CD with no dmg attached to it, but it has 2 effects depending on ur class mechanic state, yellow means 10 seconds of undefended attacks and red equals 20 sec of the same effect.

at this point i see no value in the choppa one if u compare it to the slayer ability, even if u would consider smallscale or 1v1 slayer one is much more value, and if u bring it to aoe or large scale combat its not even on the same map..

Im curious to see if there are more ability's that maybe justifying those HUGE differences and might be the explanation for this rly happy to learn more and see ur options on this !

thanks for reading this and keep slayin ! !

here are 2 images of each ability

https://imgur.com/YDBY18O
https://imgur.com/pPhj20O

Not much to say about it, generally speaking Slayer have the upper hand on every skill compared to Choppa. But if this can relive you, I think that Rampage is very overrated skill. Still better than Keep On Choppin' though.

[p00ky]

Would be great if the bias wouldn't shine through so bright... because leaving out that destro got incoming heal debuff on chosen while order got outgoing is pretty much the only thing that have to be said about that.

The old myth about order having higher flat dmd output is very few who still believe in, while having incoming heal debuff, more and better cc, self pump and earlier usable morale drain is too much.

When one faction got self pump without even have to actually participating in the actual fight (except the obvious, to get "into combat"), i don't think that anyone sane would argue the differ but i'm sure i will be proven wrong in this regard.

And you think 25% healdebuff non stacking
and a wounds debuff makes up for vigilance, block, crit for group, aoe snare and increased healing that does stack?
You're among the select few that think chosen is better than KotBS in that case.

Close bond? Or is summoning pet too hard for you?
I know no one runs it because it's bad but that's not the tactics fault it's the fact that morale bomb got nerfed and loner is now the build for WB lion, get into 2020.
Game was full of mSH before morale nerf now there's a handful, what do you think happened?

But good job providing proof of my bias by saying mSH self pump is OP and that type of self pump is only available to destro.

Bout as smart as IF I would call you out on order bias because WL has pet and mara doesn't.

Oh and WL has out going healdebuff mSH zero healdebuffs, must make WL much more OP than mSH with your logic.

Your assumption is 100% based upon that im an order player.... when i only play destro

EDIT: also claiming that absolute best class in the game, Black Orc, is inferior to SM says alot

Having both an endgame BO and endgame SM, using them both in premade groups/warbands, please explain how BO is better in this aspect as I am obviously missing out on something

Initial post is pretty accurate, SM brings more to the team

[carlos]

Just having self pump is more then enough.

[Rapzel]

Spoiler:

Would be great if the bias wouldn't shine through so bright... because leaving out that destro got incoming heal debuff on chosen while order got outgoing is pretty much the only thing that have to be said about that.

The old myth about order having higher flat dmd output is very few who still believe in, while having incoming heal debuff, more and better cc, self pump and earlier usable morale drain is too much.

When one faction got self pump without even have to actually participating in the actual fight (except the obvious, to get "into combat"), i don't think that anyone sane would argue the differ but i'm sure i will be proven wrong in this regard.

And you think 25% healdebuff non stacking
and a wounds debuff makes up for vigilance, block, crit for group, aoe snare and increased healing that does stack?
You're among the select few that think chosen is better than KotBS in that case.

Close bond? Or is summoning pet too hard for you?
I know no one runs it because it's bad but that's not the tactics fault it's the fact that morale bomb got nerfed and loner is now the build for WB lion, get into 2020.
Game was full of mSH before morale nerf now there's a handful, what do you think happened?

But good job providing proof of my bias by saying mSH self pump is OP and that type of self pump is only available to destro.

Bout as smart as IF I would call you out on order bias because WL has pet and mara doesn't.

Oh and WL has out going healdebuff mSH zero healdebuffs, must make WL much more OP than mSH with your logic.

Your assumption is 100% based upon that im an order player.... when i only play destro

EDIT: also claiming that absolute best class in the game, Black Orc, is inferior to SM says alot

Dragon talons with tactic = 20% reduced dmg output for 4 secs on everyone in 20 ft of target, no cd.
BO has Ya missed me, undefendable attack reduces one target's physical damage by 20% for 10 sec, requires block, 20 sec cd.
Savin me hide, increases toughness (doesn't stack with other toughness buffs) and reduces inc magic damage on group members by 20% for 4 sec, no cd.

Intimidating blow, morale drain, can slot tactic to reduce crit chance on affected target
Clobber, can slot tactic to drain morale.

Whispering Wind, silences target, reduces all ability cds in party by 5 secs. 20 sec cd

WAAAAAGH, reduces corp resistance in AoE, AoE dmg, increases AA damage for party by 25%, 5 sec cd, can slot tactic to make it reduce ability cd in party by 5 sec, but increases cd to 20 sec.

More career specific abilities
SM AoE interrupt with block 5% and armor, 10 sec cd.
Punt on block.

BO Cd increaser on one target.
Can't hit me 50% block, movement speed reduced to 60%, damage on block.
Get 'Em - AP increaser for group 100 ft.

Is BO tankier than SM? Yes full def BO is tankier (higher avoidance and hp)
Does SM have more and easier to use utility? Yes.

Please enlighten me where this BO best career in game ability is? Quite sure KotBS is the best tank in the game, and that that is the general consensus.

[carlos]

I like that you spend so much time and effort to reply and still pick and choose what to reply on.

I think this is funny, i could do this all day.

Let's be real for a moment - you want more easy kills then you already have (or you are one of the few stuggeling who can't succeed due to own knowledge, even that you're doing the best you can to sound "so smart" on a public forum).

[CeeJay89]

Everyone needs to stop looking at classes as an individual or in comparison to their mirror. This is a group game, and what matters is how they synergize with the other classes in their factions. What do they contribute to a small group/warband/zerg?

Just as an example, many would argue Slayers put out higher numbers than Choppa, primarily due to very strong abilities like ID and Rampage. But what about how impactful "Chop Fasta!" is, which seems to get neglected from every discussion comparing the two? Sure, Slayer's kit lends itself to a more powerful singular class, but Choppa lends itself better to a group.

If KotBS is the best tank in the game for its utility and how it contributes to a group, why do we neglect what other classes offer to a group?

Mind you, I'm not saying Choppa is better than Slayer because of Chop Fasta (which I would argue IS a game changing ability; far moreso than rampage), but to say that Slayer is better than Choppa because they can put out higher numbers with ID and rampage seems just as ignorant.

[Ysaran]

Everyone needs to stop looking at classes as an individual or in comparison to their mirror. This is a group game, and what matters is how they synergize with the other classes in their factions. What do they contribute to a small group/warband/zerg?

Just as an example, many would argue Slayers put out higher numbers than Choppa, primarily due to very strong abilities like ID and Rampage. But what about how impactful "Chop Fasta!" is, which seems to get neglected from every discussion comparing the two? Sure, Slayer's kit lends itself to a more powerful singular class, but Choppa lends itself better to a group.

If KotBS is the best tank in the game for its utility and how it contributes to a group, why do we neglect what other classes offer to a group?

Mind you, I'm not saying Choppa is better than Slayer because of Chop Fasta (which I would argue IS a game changing ability; far moreso than rampage), but to say that Slayer is better than Choppa because they can put out higher numbers with ID and rampage seems just as ignorant.

Ok, I need to reply to this^ because I partially agree. Abilities shouldn't be looked at individually or in comparison with its mirrors, and that's the reason because I say the Rampage is overrated. Even looking at the problem from this perspective there is a disparity between slayer/choppa. Let's talk about the comparison between slayer and choppa AoE build (not only the mastery tree, the whole spec).
Slayer spec for Rampage, Shatter Limbs, ID and AoE snare while Choppa spec for GTDC (just nerfed, btw), Chop Fasta and AoE snare.
about the AoE snare there's nothing to say, exact mirror.

Shatter Limbs increase CD on enemies (up to 24) by 3s, deals AoE damage and have low CD. This, as far as I know, it's a unique ability on Order side making the Slayer very valuable in evey context. This ability, even being AoE, it's useful even in 1v1/small-scale since it's real pain in the arse for healers.

On the other side we have Chop Fasta that decrease CD by 5s to party member in 100f range (so up to 6 ppl), deal no damage and have 40s CD. This ability, as you pointed out, WAS very useful in party BUT now Black Ork have access WAAAAAAAGH! (+ tactic), which not only decrease CD by 5s but it also deal AoE damage, debuff corporeal resistence, increase AA damage by 25% and have 20s CD (half of Chop Fasta). This make Chop Fasta unnecessary since BO it's amuch better buff provider considering also that choppa is squishy AF, while BO it's pretty tanky.

Let's now focus on ID. Many think that Slayer deals more damage than Choppa due to Rampage, but that's false. ID it's the true reason, let's see why. ID by itself isn't that much but it synergize with other Slayer skill (and also damge buff from WP and BW) in a way that Choppa can't do.
ID deals damage every 2s to all the enemies around the target, on every tick on every target proc Reckless Gamble (+100 damage) and also on every tick can proc BW or WP damage bonus. This means that once you fired ID on a target every 2s he will suffer at least 200 damage and since Reckless Gamble will proc on every successive skill the damage per second increase to 300. ID last between 4s (3 tick) and 8s (5 tcik) and have 5s CD, which mean that it potentially have 100% uptime. The 100% uptime can be guaranteed by SM Whispering Wind that decrease Cd by 5s to the whole party (similar to WHAAAAAAGH!). ID used in combo with Relentless Strike + Spinecrushe or Retribution can create a really high sustained damage in both ST and AoE, even without Rampage. To see this is enough try these combo on the dummy.

In the same place where Slayer have ID Choppa have GTDC. GTDC is a 6s channeling (4 tick), which means that: it can be interrupted, no AA while channeling and no AP regen. GTDC have higher damage (the double, more or less) per tick compared to ID and it have 20s CD that usually is decreased to 15s due to Chop Fasta/WAAAAAAGH!. GTDC pulls one random target. The pull is a multyfunctional tool, can by uset to stop kiting ppl, interrupt casting, pull stealthed WH, counterpull self-punt (like SW Wirlwind) and so on. But it also give free immunity and so it is a pain in the arse for Destru tank. Anyone who recognize tank's utility will be very cautious using GTDC in crowded place, and this lock one of the highest-damage Choppa's ability behinde tank's necessity of doing their work. This skill give nothing to the party, it's usefull only to the Choppa that can close the gap between him and his target.

In the end we have Rampage. This is a strong ability indeed but, as I wrote before, not the reason of Slayer high number. Rampage last 10s/20s (depends if you are Berserk or Furious), for it's whole duration Slayer's attacks can't be parried/blocked. That's cool, but actually the only enemy that can parry/block is tank and you will never hit a tank unless everyone else died. But there's another litlle thing about Rampage that it's written in the tooltip. Not Rampage tooltip, Guard tooltip. Guard damage generated by undefendable attack is also undfendable! Yes, you get it right, Destru tanks can't parry/block guard damage generated by Slayer. So if you are a Slayer and you are using Rampage+ID+Retribution+Reckless Gamble on a guarded target in Guard range the tank will be hitted by ID, Reckless Gamble (x2), Retribution and all the Guard damage generated by his guarded target.

Now, I must say that both Rampage and ID can be dispelled but they both have pretty low CD, so not a big problem. Also Rampage drops your Rage but this can be avoided by slotting the tactic Power Through.

What I want to say is that Slayer is a must have for Order since it have unique ability and insanenly high damage while Choppa have decent damage and all the other thing he do could be done better by other classes.
So yes, abilities shouldn't be looked at individually or in comparison with its mirrors, but even doing so Choppa look pretty bad.

[CeeJay89]

Spoiler:

Everyone needs to stop looking at classes as an individual or in comparison to their mirror. This is a group game, and what matters is how they synergize with the other classes in their factions. What do they contribute to a small group/warband/zerg?

Just as an example, many would argue Slayers put out higher numbers than Choppa, primarily due to very strong abilities like ID and Rampage. But what about how impactful "Chop Fasta!" is, which seems to get neglected from every discussion comparing the two? Sure, Slayer's kit lends itself to a more powerful singular class, but Choppa lends itself better to a group.

If KotBS is the best tank in the game for its utility and how it contributes to a group, why do we neglect what other classes offer to a group?

Mind you, I'm not saying Choppa is better than Slayer because of Chop Fasta (which I would argue IS a game changing ability; far moreso than rampage), but to say that Slayer is better than Choppa because they can put out higher numbers with ID and rampage seems just as ignorant.

Ok, I need to reply to this^ because I partially agree. Abilities shouldn't be looked at individually or in comparison with its mirrors, and that's the reason because I say the Rampage is overrated. Even looking at the problem from this perspective there is a disparity between slayer/choppa. Let's talk about the comparison between slayer and choppa AoE build (not only the mastery tree, the whole spec).
Slayer spec for Rampage, Shatter Limbs, ID and AoE snare while Choppa spec for GTDC (just nerfed, btw), Chop Fasta and AoE snare.
about the AoE snare there's nothing to say, exact mirror.

Shatter Limbs increase CD on enemies (up to 24) by 3s, deals AoE damage and have low CD. This, as far as I know, it's a unique ability on Order side making the Slayer very valuable in evey context. This ability, even being AoE, it's useful even in 1v1/small-scale since it's real pain in the arse for healers.

On the other side we have Chop Fasta that decrease CD by 5s to party member in 100f range (so up to 6 ppl), deal no damage and have 40s CD. This ability, as you pointed out, WAS very useful in party BUT now Black Ork have access WAAAAAAAGH! (+ tactic), which not only decrease CD by 5s but it also deal AoE damage, debuff corporeal resistence, increase AA damage by 25% and have 20s CD (half of Chop Fasta). This make Chop Fasta unnecessary since BO it's amuch better buff provider considering also that choppa is squishy AF, while BO it's pretty tanky.

Let's now focus on ID. Many think that Slayer deals more damage than Choppa due to Rampage, but that's false. ID it's the true reason, let's see why. ID by itself isn't that much but it synergize with other Slayer skill (and also damge buff from WP and BW) in a way that Choppa can't do.
ID deals damage every 2s to all the enemies around the target, on every tick on every target proc Reckless Gamble (+100 damage) and also on every tick can proc BW or WP damage bonus. This means that once you fired ID on a target every 2s he will suffer at least 200 damage and since Reckless Gamble will proc on every successive skill the damage per second increase to 300. ID last between 4s (3 tick) and 8s (5 tcik) and have 5s CD, which mean that it potentially have 100% uptime. The 100% uptime can be guaranteed by SM Whispering Wind that decrease Cd by 5s to the whole party (similar to WHAAAAAAGH!). ID used in combo with Relentless Strike + Spinecrushe or Retribution can create a really high sustained damage in both ST and AoE, even without Rampage. To see this is enough try these combo on the dummy.

In the same place where Slayer have ID Choppa have GTDC. GTDC is a 6s channeling (4 tick), which means that: it can be interrupted, no AA while channeling and no AP regen. GTDC have higher damage (the double, more or less) per tick compared to ID and it have 20s CD that usually is decreased to 15s due to Chop Fasta/WAAAAAAGH!. GTDC pulls one random target. The pull is a multyfunctional tool, can by uset to stop kiting ppl, interrupt casting, pull stealthed WH, counterpull self-punt (like SW Wirlwind) and so on. But it also give free immunity and so it is a pain in the arse for Destru tank. Anyone who recognize tank's utility will be very cautious using GTDC in crowded place, and this lock one of the highest-damage Choppa's ability behinde tank's necessity of doing their work. This skill give nothing to the party, it's usefull only to the Choppa that can close the gap between him and his target.

In the end we have Rampage. This is a strong ability indeed but, as I wrote before, not the reason of Slayer high number. Rampage last 10s/20s (depends if you are Berserk or Furious), for it's whole duration Slayer's attacks can't be parried/blocked. That's cool, but actually the only enemy that can parry/block is tank and you will never hit a tank unless everyone else died. But there's another litlle thing about Rampage that it's written in the tooltip. Not Rampage tooltip, Guard tooltip. Guard damage generated by undefendable attack is also undfendable! Yes, you get it right, Destru tanks can't parry/block guard damage generated by Slayer. So if you are a Slayer and you are using Rampage+ID+Retribution+Reckless Gamble on a guarded target in Guard range the tank will be hitted by ID, Reckless Gamble (x2), Retribution and all the Guard damage generated by his guarded target.

Now, I must say that both Rampage and ID can be dispelled but they both have pretty low CD, so not a big problem. Also Rampage drops your Rage but this can be avoided by slotting the tactic Power Through.

What I want to say is that Slayer is a must have for Order since it have unique ability and insanenly high damage while Choppa have decent damage and all the other thing he do could be done better by other classes.
So yes, abilities shouldn't be looked at individually or in comparison with its mirrors, but even doing so Choppa look pretty bad.

Just to clarify, Shatter Limbs used to be Order Unique. It was given to mSH in the form of "Indigestion", 9 points up the Bouncin' Tree.

Chop Fasta! I would argue is better than Whispering Winds and WAAAAAAAGH!. The reason for this is simple. It has the same uptime as WW and WAAA- at 50%. However, unlike the other two, you don't have to get to a specific stance. You can preload Chop Fasta! at the start of the fight, where SM and BO both have to use three GCD, two of which requires you to hit in melee if you Sudden Shift or Changin' Da Plan (I can't remember if these trigger GCD, but still), and a Choppa has to use one GCD at any given time.

I do not have a counter argument to ID, as I am not a Slayer player. Anecdotally, as a former Destro player, here and on Live, I never really felt frustrated by a Slayer imploding me with ID/rampage. But GTDC has definitely frustrated me, not because of its damage, but that wonky ass pull. If there was at least a visual indicator of some kind for it to tell you you're within instant pull range, it wouldn't be that bad. It would still be frustrating, like any pull, but at least feel more justified. With Marauder, you have a long purple schlong rubbing up against you. With WL, there's a large white kitten nuzzling your scrote. With Choppa it's just... he's spinning, which HeliChoppas are doing even when there's no fight going and then you're flying through the air.

I understand the plight of Choppas vs Slayers, and maybe Chop Fasta! doesn't make up for the raw damage Slayers can put out, but boy do I wish I had an on demand cd reducer. Which is unique to destro, mind you.