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Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

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dalen
Developer
Posts: 619

Re: Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#21 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:40 pm

The stacking rules for heal buffs are already the same as for heal debuffs.

Focused Mending stacks with Blessing of Grungni because Focused Mending adds an extra effect to Stay Focused, but Stay Focused is still an ability, not a tactic.

And as you mentioned Exalted Defenses is outgoing, so therefore stacks with incoming.

Same rules apply to Desperation + Magical Infusion or Aint Done Yet + Shrug it Off.


To discuss the realm balance of this you probably have to take the difference between Discordant Turbulence & Now's Our Chance into account.
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Fanaticseb
Posts: 18

Re: Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#22 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:01 pm

dalen wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:40 pm The stacking rules for heal buffs are already the same as for heal debuffs.

Focused Mending stacks with Blessing of Grungni because Focused Mending adds an extra effect to Stay Focused, but Stay Focused is still an ability, not a tactic.

And as you mentioned Exalted Defenses is outgoing, so therefore stacks with incoming.

Same rules apply to Desperation + Magical Infusion or Aint Done Yet + Shrug it Off.


To discuss the realm balance of this you probably have to take the difference between Discordant Turbulence & Now's Our Chance into account.
Thx for responding a clearing a few things up, but i see no reason for Focused Mending stacking with Blessing of Grungni.

We could also talk about:
  • giving a destro tank a tactic that reduces the dmg of enemies hit with an aoe aura/ability by 15% that stacks with other dmg reduce abilities/methods
  • or increasing the dmg of groupmembers by 15%
If the whole opposite skills theme is preferred

Telther
Posts: 94

Re: Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#23 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:10 pm

Fanaticseb wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:01 pm
dalen wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:40 pm The stacking rules for heal buffs are already the same as for heal debuffs.

Focused Mending stacks with Blessing of Grungni because Focused Mending adds an extra effect to Stay Focused, but Stay Focused is still an ability, not a tactic.

And as you mentioned Exalted Defenses is outgoing, so therefore stacks with incoming.

Same rules apply to Desperation + Magical Infusion or Aint Done Yet + Shrug it Off.


To discuss the realm balance of this you probably have to take the difference between Discordant Turbulence & Now's Our Chance into account.
Thx for responding a clearing a few things up, but i see no reason for Focused Mending stacking with Blessing of Grungni.

We could also talk about:
  • giving a destro tank a tactic that reduces the dmg of enemies hit with an aoe aura/ability by 15% that stacks with other dmg reduce abilities/methods
  • or increasing the dmg of groupmembers by 15%
If the whole opposite skills theme is preferred

He just explained that they are separate buffs, one is an ability bonus, the other is a tatic bonus. If there were a moral to buff healing available it would stack as well. Works the same on debuffs as well.

Fanaticseb
Posts: 18

Re: Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#24 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:20 am

Telther wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:10 pm
Fanaticseb wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:01 pm
dalen wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:40 pm The stacking rules for heal buffs are already the same as for heal debuffs.

Focused Mending stacks with Blessing of Grungni because Focused Mending adds an extra effect to Stay Focused, but Stay Focused is still an ability, not a tactic.

And as you mentioned Exalted Defenses is outgoing, so therefore stacks with incoming.

Same rules apply to Desperation + Magical Infusion or Aint Done Yet + Shrug it Off.


To discuss the realm balance of this you probably have to take the difference between Discordant Turbulence & Now's Our Chance into account.
Thx for responding a clearing a few things up, but i see no reason for Focused Mending stacking with Blessing of Grungni.

We could also talk about:
  • giving a destro tank a tactic that reduces the dmg of enemies hit with an aoe aura/ability by 15% that stacks with other dmg reduce abilities/methods
  • or increasing the dmg of groupmembers by 15%
If the whole opposite skills theme is preferred

He just explained that they are separate buffs, one is an ability bonus, the other is a tatic bonus. If there were a moral to buff healing available it would stack as well. Works the same on debuffs as well.


Yes i read that, but u can implement that modification of the aura in 2 seperate ways.
  • the base aura is modified from the tactic and is a single buff on your character, which means that it should be possible to have a base aura and a modified aura on your grp
  • the tactic adds the tactic buff to the list of buffs on the character, when the aura is on you. Which means no stacking base auras, and the tactic still applies


So i would suggest that the tactic modifies the aura in the 2nd way. That means when u have the modified aura on you, then u get 2 buffs (the aura and the tactic buff).
And if it were implemented that way then Focussed Mending and Blessing of Grungi shouln't stack, because they have the same effect.

I mean the first way of implementing the effect is clearly an oversight from the original developers, beacause we can imagine a few arbitrarly different ways of modifying skills.

Omnipwn
Posts: 7

Re: Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#25 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:34 am

dalen wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:40 pm The stacking rules for heal buffs are already the same as for heal debuffs.

Focused Mending stacks with Blessing of Grungni because Focused Mending adds an extra effect to Stay Focused, but Stay Focused is still an ability, not a tactic.
Does this mean that Curse of Khaine (tactic) should stack with incoming heal debuff abilities (ie. Can't Stop Da Chop); what about Deadly Clutch (mara tactic)?

mubbl
Posts: 277

Re: Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#26 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:15 am

Omnipwn wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:34 am
dalen wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:40 pm The stacking rules for heal buffs are already the same as for heal debuffs.

Focused Mending stacks with Blessing of Grungni because Focused Mending adds an extra effect to Stay Focused, but Stay Focused is still an ability, not a tactic.
Does this mean that Curse of Khaine (tactic) should stack with incoming heal debuff abilities (ie. Can't Stop Da Chop); what about Deadly Clutch (mara tactic)?
Healdebuffs and slows are normaly excluded from the stacking rules, for reasons (:

emiliorv
Suspended
Posts: 1295

Re: Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#27 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:01 am

dalen wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:40 pm The stacking rules for heal buffs are already the same as for heal debuffs.
Focused Mending stacks with Blessing of Grungni because Focused Mending adds an extra effect to Stay Focused, but Stay Focused is still an ability, not a tactic.
DoK incoming healdebuff its a tactic, but atm dont stack with other incoming healdebuffs that come from abilities...its intended?? that "stacking rules" are working properly?
As a sidenote, since 02/09/2020 the healdebuff from zealot M4 dont stack with any other inc-healdebuff....so dunno how morales works in that "stacking rules"...iirc other debuffs/buffs from morales stacks with ability/tactics..

Omnipwn
Posts: 7

Re: Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#28 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:32 am

Yeah it would be great to get a concise answer (from a dev preferably) as to what the 'stacking rules' are or should be. Then we can talk about how things really are and how they ought to be.

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Omnipwn
Posts: 7

Re: Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#29 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:03 am

It seems like the rules are currently:
(on the positive side)
Buffs can stack with enchantments/blessings can stack with tactics
(on the negative side)
Debuffs can stack with aliments/curses can stack with tactics [conjecture, not tested very well]

When there's two effects of the same category the stronger effect takes priority. My guess as to why the DoK heal debuff wouldn't stack would be because it's of type aliments/curses, which is shared with all the other healing debuffs. However these 'rules' are broken pretty often so your guess is as good as mine.

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1896

Re: Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#30 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:34 am

stacking rules;

abilities/procs/buffs/pots (unless unique) + tactic (unless unique) + morales (unless unique)
Say Str potion, would not stack with Str buff from an ability, but would stack with a Str tactic or with tactic that modifies an ability that grants said buff, and would stack with a morale buff to str unless specified otherwise.

Wounds debuffs, only largest one is applied.
Heal debuffs, only largest one is applied.
Meaning target can only have one wounds debuff up at same time, regardless of the source (ability/tactic/morale)

For heal debuffs, there are 2 versions, outgoing applied on healer, incoming applied on target. Largest one is applied and overwrites lesser ones. Say Subju axe with -25 inc hdbuff, and -50 inc hdbuff from an ability, only -50 inc hdbuff would be applied.
Similarly only largest outgoing hdbuff would be effective.

As for heal modifier stacks, there exist those that modify the outgoing value of the healer and those that modify the incoming heal value on target.
Meaning WP would have +20 outgoing, and this would then be added to whatever modifiers the target receiving heals may have.
Knight +15 is a tactic that modifies an existing ability/aura, it stacks with RP buff that is tactic based and grants +25 incoming heals on target. Which can be further stacked with Am +25 MI which is an unique ability and allowed to stack with other abilities. This can be further stacked with SM 7pc inv which is +5 on other party members, again unique gear bonus, therefore allowed to stack. On top of this, the 2nd SM in the party could be running +20 inc heals tactic, which also be added together (to a theoretical max of 2.1 modifier). Generally heal bonuses are just stacked additively, same way outgoing damage bonuses can be stacked additively. This makes sense if you count heal as "negative damage attack" that healer casts on target, so it follows same pattern as stacking outgoing damage modifiers the way DPS classes can do.

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