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[Suggestion] Chop Fasta!

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Gurf
Posts: 130

Re: [Suggestion] Chop Fasta!

Post#11 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:43 pm

Foofmonger wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:39 pm
M0rw47h wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:06 am
Image

I'd say it's time to:
  • Mirror "Chop Fasta!" on both Witch Hunter and Witch Elf;
  • Replace "Chop Fasta!" with new ability, could be somekind of buff consuming rage like Rampage does for +% damage, or simply just Rampage mirror.
Why?
  • Choppa isn't supposed to be utility mDPS to begin with, but top dps mDPS;
  • More utility for both WH/WE, should make them more desirable for warbands, it also should help with more flexibility in building more balanced warbands or groups on both sides.
I like this a lot, it's simple, it's effective and, it's balanced. It gives a purpose to WH/WE in wbs, it balances the Choppa better to be a mirror to the slayer, and it fixes on of the issues in overall balance (destro having 2 group CD reducers compared to orders 1).

I think Rampage mirror is the easiest way. Then the major difference between Choppa/Slayer is GTTC vs ID, which has it's pros and cons as it should be.

Love it, great job.
The only way you can give Rampage to Destro is to give GTDC to Order

I'm not sure buffing destro melee train is a very good way of going about realm balance to be honest

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nuadarstark
Posts: 153

Re: [Suggestion] Chop Fasta!

Post#12 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:51 pm

Neither of the melee trains deserves any straight up buffs, as both are outright absurd now, but utility vs damage balance would be nice for both sides.
Crazy Salvation WP Guernios - rr82, full Sov
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Foofmonger
Posts: 520

Re: [Suggestion] Chop Fasta!

Post#13 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:11 pm

Gurf wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:43 pm
Foofmonger wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:39 pm
M0rw47h wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:06 am
Image

I'd say it's time to:
  • Mirror "Chop Fasta!" on both Witch Hunter and Witch Elf;
  • Replace "Chop Fasta!" with new ability, could be somekind of buff consuming rage like Rampage does for +% damage, or simply just Rampage mirror.
Why?
  • Choppa isn't supposed to be utility mDPS to begin with, but top dps mDPS;
  • More utility for both WH/WE, should make them more desirable for warbands, it also should help with more flexibility in building more balanced warbands or groups on both sides.
I like this a lot, it's simple, it's effective and, it's balanced. It gives a purpose to WH/WE in wbs, it balances the Choppa better to be a mirror to the slayer, and it fixes on of the issues in overall balance (destro having 2 group CD reducers compared to orders 1).

I think Rampage mirror is the easiest way. Then the major difference between Choppa/Slayer is GTTC vs ID, which has it's pros and cons as it should be.

Love it, great job.
The only way you can give Rampage to Destro is to give GTDC to Order

I'm not sure buffing destro melee train is a very good way of going about realm balance to be honest
I disagree. GTTC is mirrored to ID which is what should be compared. Rampage is irrelvent to GTDC and hardly suits the same purpose.

That being said, whatever you replace Chop Fasta with doesn't "HAVE" to be rampage. It could be a new ability or something too, but again, it's still gonna be a buff to the Choppa.

There is no way to remove Chop Fasta from the Choppa, give them nothing in return, and call that balanced. Things involve trades, and if we want to remove chop fasta from choppas and also give it to Order, that means we need to gap-fill that ability in the Choppa mastery path with "something". Whether that something is Rampage is not is the discussion at hand, but again, Rampage has nothing to do with GTTC or ID.

Foofmonger
Posts: 520

Re: [Suggestion] Chop Fasta!

Post#14 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:17 pm

nuadarstark wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:51 pm
Neither of the melee trains deserves any straight up buffs, as both are outright absurd now, but utility vs damage balance would be nice for both sides.
I don't see how giving WHs/WEs utility buffs, (classes who aren't even used in the melee train often), to give them a reason/purpose to be included IN the melee train are "melee train buffs".

I also don't see how we consider removing Chop Fasta from Choppas as a "melee train buff".

The argument premise that this thread is buffing melee trains is red-herring nonsense.

Effectively, the suggestion here is a net buff for Order more than Destro, which is probably needed. CD reducer parity is a big isue, what this will allow Order to do is:

1. Not have to have a SM in every group to get a cooldown reducer. This frees up Order to run more IBs (they run enough knights so/shrug).
2. Gives a WH a reason to be included in WB play more often. Group CD reducers are hugely powerful utility and this will allow for further WH viability.
3. Does the same thing to the WE that it does to the WH.
4. Is a Choppa nerf, and a nerf to stacking Choppas. Now to be able to get a CD reducer, Destro will have to use either WEs (which don't have the AoE pressure of choppas), or Black Orcs, which will mirror what Order has to do with Swordmasters and Witch Hunters.
5. There is an outlier of "what the Choppa gets are a replacement", that many people on this thread are keying into at "this is a Choppa buff thread", but the OP didn't propose any hard ideas, just saying that it could be "various things", with Rampage as an option. That doesn't mean Rampage is the only option and if we collectively think Rampage on Choppas who have no Chop Fasta would be too strong (which I think is a ridiculous argument personally, but it's certainly a discussion that could be had), then it's too strong and should not be the proposal/suggestion that is being made.

For those who think Rampage is a bad trade and Choppa's shouldn't have it. What would you propose as an alternative ability idea? Constructive criticism is productive, saying "me no like too stronk" is lazy and worthless feedback to a proposal such as this.

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1828

Re: [Suggestion] Chop Fasta!

Post#15 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:52 pm

oh please no

CF! is one of the core aspects of the choppa class, as it opens various builds that require lesser CD, and it is the core of the classes synergy with other destro classes that benefit from less cds. The real mystery is first nerfing BORK, then buffing BORK by giving them the SM cd reducer, though requiring a tactic, but on a tanky frontliner that already had various utility.
Bad Gas existed for ages, meleesquig was just a niche class so no one cared about it, only with meatball buffs did it become even noticeable for most people, previously trying to apply a melee hit on a ranged dps class was ??? balance thing.
Touching Choppa would just make the weird GTDC vs Slayer ID+rampage balance even more weird, even if I hope one day GTDC is reworked and the whole Choppa AoE tree becomes sensible and not just "spam Lotsa or GTDC" aoe class.

WE/WH need total rework for the class to make sense in endgame content (forts, cities). You can roam solo with stealth (wew) or stab lowbie pugs in scs but any large combat and your class is kinda wasted. Maybe one day the left trees become proper AoE spec options.
If that happens, I'd not be against giving WH some variant of CF! to make both realms have 2 cd reducers and 2 cd increasers (or BORK needs to go) - but in turn the WE/WH AOE specs should remain "unique", say WH gains 9pts left tree CD reducer 10? effect 20s CD, and the parry buff can be added to some tactic so some ppl can keep doing riposte. Then maybe 9pts WE PA becomes a better WS + extra armor pen buff on self or something equally useful (or targets physical mitigation is shredded by -20% debuff)
Other issues with the class remain the need to get stealth elixir to remain alive and mobile and the need to pick crit modifier in almost every build if you want to dish out good dmg.

mubbl
Posts: 241

Re: [Suggestion] Chop Fasta!

Post#16 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:32 pm

Wh/we do their dedicated st role in cities quite good in my op. Its one of the few places they can.
I also heard whs could be seen as decent utility chars.
Dont you think it would open sm to much for just talon spam?

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M0rw47h
Posts: 596

Re: [Suggestion] Chop Fasta!

Post#17 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:04 pm

Aurandilaz wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:52 pm
stuff
- Rampage (or any new ability) over Chop Fasta would be improvement for Choppa himself. As Choppa could just get CDR from BO or WE then.
- WE/WH stealth elixir/relic should be baseline. It's core to every single build anyway.
Anathae [KotBS] / Anathea [WP] ( and couple others )
former Anathae [Zealot]

Foofmonger
Posts: 520

Re: [Suggestion] Chop Fasta!

Post#18 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:33 pm

An option to just give Chop Fasta to the WH exists too instead of also switching it from Choppa to WE. That being said, the WE would probably need a different utility buff if that were to happen.

I'm ok with that too.

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nuadarstark
Posts: 153

Re: [Suggestion] Chop Fasta!

Post#19 » Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:50 am

Foofmonger wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:17 pm
nuadarstark wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:51 pm
Neither of the melee trains deserves any straight up buffs, as both are outright absurd now, but utility vs damage balance would be nice for both sides.
I don't see how giving WHs/WEs utility buffs, (classes who aren't even used in the melee train often), to give them a reason/purpose to be included IN the melee train are "melee train buffs".

I also don't see how we consider removing Chop Fasta from Choppas as a "melee train buff".

The argument premise that this thread is buffing melee trains is red-herring nonsense.
Mate I agree with you, I didn't mean it as a "buffing WH/WEs by adding some utility for WBs is buffing the melee train", meant it more in the sense that the current meta melee train of Choppa/Mara/mSH or Slayer/WL is absurd and shouldn't get any buffs. That was purely as a reaction to folks who were saying Choppa should get Rampage in exchange for removing Chop Fasta (or giving it's equivalent to some class on Order), which I saw as a pure nonsense.

As for the breakdown you had in your comment, I also agree there.
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nat3s
Posts: 286

Re: [Suggestion] Chop Fasta!

Post#20 » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:30 am

Order actually have the better melee train, they just don't run melee comps very often because they're infested with BW, Engis and dps AM.

Nerfing destro melee would need to be acompanied by nerfing order ranged if you want any semblance of balance. Toning down order ranged would also help solve the problem with order stomping all forts.
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