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Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1829

Re: Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

Post#21 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:25 pm

Foofmonger wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:46 pm
Don't think that's a good way to balance the Marauder. The White Lion can do "the exact same thing", and it's not considered an issue. They also ignore 50% armor on Slashing Blade (Demolition mirror). This would indicate that this isn't the correct way to balance the class.

Mara issues are not Demolition. Have a long post about this in the city siege thread but there are 4 major issues:

1. Monstro proc is too strong (and also bugged).
2. AoE damage scaling is probably overtuned in general (specifically Demolition and Wreckingball, they should probably have the same PSM scaling as WL abilities).
3. AoE Interrupt is far better range than Orders (WL), and AoE interrupts are too strong with 10 sec cds in general.
4. AoE KD has a lack of parity in the realms (minor issue).

That being said, I'm not being critical because your proposal would "overnerf" Mara's or anything, I just don't think it solves the core issue at hand.
WL sadly has none of the self healing and only retains the interrupt utility. Their tankiness is on level closer to MSH, with fast pounce being their survival trick. A class on Order with total armor pen ignore like Maras would be also pretty much OP, given that it would negate the dmg pressure from Mara/Chop/MSH/WE/2htanks.
WL HackNSlash is exactly on two abilities, Slash + Whirl. Whereas various Mara tactics cover majority of their AoE abilities and most of their ST abilities as well. Limiting some of the "best"/"most spammed" AoE of theirs to not benefit from their juiciest tactics would be one way to balance things - majority of WL abilities do not benefit from their "main AoE tactic".

So either the dmg has to be lowered (lesser Demo + hard hitting other Monstro spec abilities with their various utility) - or their tankiness would have to lowered down to Choppa levels considering their dmg output is equal, if not better due to access to higher mcrit and crit modifier, while having higher base dmg on Demo + WB then the usual AoE spammers of Choppa Lotsa/GTDC.
Demo nerf is one idea, scaling back dmg to pre-march buffs is another option.
The AoE interrupt is nonissue considering its mysterious 5ft cone width, unless you have 8 healers standing in a pile/row on enemy team.
AoE KD is strong, but again not the main balance issue. It's been there for years, and is the cornerstone of Destro warband CC potential.
I wouldn't touch all the utility, but would rather hope that Monstro becomes the old AoE utility/debuff spec and their other 2 spec trees then becomes the actual damage specs. There needs to be a clear tradeoff between choosing Monstro spec for utility and tankyness versus using some other spec for higher dmg and lesser tankyness. Having it all available in one spec isn't fair for other Destro classes nor good from Order POV, when it comes to general idea of trying to keep game balanced.

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Sulorie
Posts: 4929

Re: Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

Post#22 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:39 pm

banites wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:29 am


Shaman / AM - Additional mechanic with gork/mork and Traquility/Force
-The mechanic currently serves little purpose and does not really become a "mechanic" of the class.. I suggest that each point of their balance their stats willpower h.crit / int, magic crit convert. For example: for shaman every point of mork converts 12% of willpower and h.crit to int and magic crit and vice versa.
For what you want to convert stats? You have no willpower in dps spec.
Dying is no option.

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Ramlaen
Posts: 92

Re: Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

Post#23 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:01 pm

Aurandilaz wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:25 pm
A class on Order with total armor pen ignore like Maras would be also pretty much OP, given that it would negate the dmg pressure from Mara/Chop/MSH/WE/2htanks.
So, like what running 4 Mara does to Slayer/WL/aSW/WH/Engi/2htanks?
Ramlaen, Longhaul, Wolfnrock, Grashop

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wildwindblows
Posts: 203

Re: Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

Post#24 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:32 pm

Why Mara needs NERF? Lets talk about Slayer. 4 slayers can easily kill a wb in a few seconds with rampage. Mara has same utilities like aoe kd and distrup so what? The tradeoff is here wl has frontline brust and Mara has utility. Also wl has 50% armor pen. tactic too so idk why this tactic needs to be removed. Sry folks this was so offensive :)

Foofmonger
Posts: 520

Re: Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

Post#25 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:16 pm

Aurandilaz wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:25 pm
There needs to be a clear tradeoff between choosing Monstro spec for utility and tankyness versus using some other spec for higher dmg and lesser tankyness. Having it all available in one spec isn't fair for other Destro classes nor good from Order POV, when it comes to general idea of trying to keep game balanced.
We agreed 100% philosophically from a design standpoint, and are just nitpicking ideas.

I just don't like your particular idea here for doing this, but I agree with your motivations for doing so. I think retaining Slashing Blade/Demo parity is important, and the potential nerfs to Marauder's Monstro spec should be somewhere else than reducing the armor pen. Like you said, I'd rather just reduce demolitions damage, and keep the armor pen, and/or make monstro proc either worse or change it entirely.

Foofmonger
Posts: 520

Re: Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

Post#26 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:20 pm

Ramlaen wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:01 pm
Aurandilaz wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:25 pm
A class on Order with total armor pen ignore like Maras would be also pretty much OP, given that it would negate the dmg pressure from Mara/Chop/MSH/WE/2htanks.
So, like what running 4 Mara does to Slayer/WL/aSW/WH/Engi/2htanks?
So I want to make sure we all have a baseline here of what's actually happening too.

Monstro proc is bugged. Edit: So I've heard. I'm planning on testing it myself, but this post is based on what I've been told.

Here's how the bug works. You see all those abilities that say they ignore armor? Or that they penetrate X armor? Those abilities are supposed to be able to cut through Monstro proc. Monstro proc is only supposed to reduce a targets armor pen by their weaponskill stat. That's it. It is not supposed to effect abilities that ignore/interact with armor.

It does not do this currently. It is bugged from what it used to be on live. Right now, Monstro proc is also ignoring it's own counter abilities, which is making it insanely oppressive because the abilities that literally exist to counter it do not work against it.

So first things first, the proc needs a bug fix. It probably may also need additional attention, but the point of giving it to Order is fine too. There's supposed to be counterplay with this ability.

Let's take an example: White Lions. White Lions can spec a tactic that gives their AoE attacks (Slashing Blade and Whirling Axe), 50% armor ignore. If Monstro proc was not bugged, White Lions could chop right through it with their AoE spam! But, because it's bugged, White Lions don't hit Monstro Marauders for any good damage right now.

Step 1: Fix the bug. Step 2: Check functionality and further adjust if needed.
Last edited by Foofmonger on Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ramlaen
Posts: 92

Re: Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

Post#27 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:21 pm

wildwindblows wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:32 pm
Why Mara needs NERF? Lets talk about Slayer. 4 slayers can easily kill a wb in a few seconds with rampage. Mara has same utilities like aoe kd and distrup so what? The tradeoff is here wl has frontline brust and Mara has utility. Also wl has 50% armor pen. tactic too so idk why this tactic needs to be removed. Sry folks this was so offensive :)
If only rampage ignored the monstro armor pen ignore.
Ramlaen, Longhaul, Wolfnrock, Grashop

Foofmonger
Posts: 520

Re: Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

Post#28 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:25 pm

Ramlaen wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:21 pm
wildwindblows wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:32 pm
Why Mara needs NERF? Lets talk about Slayer. 4 slayers can easily kill a wb in a few seconds with rampage. Mara has same utilities like aoe kd and distrup so what? The tradeoff is here wl has frontline brust and Mara has utility. Also wl has 50% armor pen. tactic too so idk why this tactic needs to be removed. Sry folks this was so offensive :)
If only rampage ignored the monstro armor pen ignore.
Slayer is the one class, assuming Monstro proc wasn't bugged and overpowered, that doesn't have good natural counters to it (I guess also DPS WP counts too).

Almost every order class does in some form or another. A shame they apparently aren't functional. That being said, your logic here is fine and I agree.

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banites
Posts: 7

Re: Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

Post#29 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:00 am

Sulorie wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:39 pm
banites wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:29 am


Shaman / AM - Additional mechanic with gork/mork and Traquility/Force
-The mechanic currently serves little purpose and does not really become a "mechanic" of the class.. I suggest that each point of their balance their stats willpower h.crit / int, magic crit convert. For example: for shaman every point of mork converts 12% of willpower and h.crit to int and magic crit and vice versa.
For what you want to convert stats? You have no willpower in dps spec.
Exactly, I may have worded it incorrectly. The idea was every offensive spell (which ever mechanic side that is) turns your int to willpower, and vice versa. in a way if you want to keep your heals high you need to throw out an offensive spell to keep your mechanic at an even level. or maybe this will only apply to certain skills only. Which makes the mechanic something you really need to play with.

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