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How to change the meta with one ability

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nanakaros
Posts: 26

Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#31 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:51 pm

What will make WE, WH usefull is to stop this non sence aoe meta where everyone is running around spamming 1 button.

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Darks63
Posts: 542

Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#32 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:14 pm

I doubt WHs could condemn a corpse faster than DrWho could rez it.
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Omegus
Posts: 425

Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#33 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:39 pm

Get this off on one healer and you guarantee a party wipe which guarantees a warband wipe. Just... no.
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blasras
Posts: 15

Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#34 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:45 pm

Good suggestions I like them.
Last edited by blasras on Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

teiloh
Posts: 281

Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#35 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:57 pm

Honshu wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:03 pm

Frankly, healers should be frustrated by stealthers. I think RoR has really spoiled their healing crowd. Stealthers are not only frustrated in efforts to disrupt backlines by virtue of the natural advantage backliners have by being deep inside their own team, but between the detaunts and self peel through aoe knockbacks, even lone healers have little to fear from lone stealthers.

Stealthers are the one mdps class that I think should have some sort of detaunt blocking ability as a core part of their kit. Not a tactic, a simple 2-3 duration self buff with a 15s or so cd that simply prevents detaunts from affecting the stealther for the duration of the buff, so healers have to either try to detaunt around that (so the stealther is allowed a few seconds of being able to apply damage freely) or the healer detaunts and it gets blocked (and the stealther is rewarded by mind gaming the healer with free unobstructed access to that healer’s colon :p). Tanks should be forced to respond to their back line being harried, engineers and magnus should be incentivized to form static defenses that act to counter the efforts of stealthers, healers should get their one knock back as a get out of jail free card so their team has time to respond to a stealther trying to wreak havoc on them, but if their team doesn’t respond, all things being equal (equally geared healer can equally geared stealther), a stealther should be able to be rewarded with a kill that can’t just be magic wanded away through the 5 other healers casting a Rez.

Because, again, you NEED to think of the opportunity costs here. While the stealther is jockeying to threaten backlines and applying POSITIONING pressure, he is NOT playing a Slayer/Choppa slicing and dicing the front lines and applying HEALING pressure to the healers spamming heals trying desperately to keep everyone alive. It is a different sort of pressure and it needs to be respected and rewarded, and with the game state being what it is, it simply isn’t, and therefore nobody wants stealthers in a WB.

That idea is a bit beyond the scope of this thread, I grant, but I am just trying to illustrate the real problems facing a stealther’s ability to meaningfully contribute. Because all his efforts are rebuffed through a healer’s many tools, he cannot apply positioning pressure, because nobody cares where the stealther is, because any target he picks on will not be in danger of dying, and even if he *does* manage to get a kill despite these odds stacked against him, the healer waves a magic wand, revives the friendly corpse deep in friendly backlines, and life carries on while the stealther lays dead or is chased off, having ultimately accomplished little to nothing.
WE/WH here are a bit different from traditional stealth classes, and have especially been nerfed on a lower crit server. IMO there are a lot of buffs we can implement for the pairing that makes them strong and desirable in group+, but I don't think we should be putting more hard counters and griefing tools into the game. So far WHO is pretty good about not doing the whole rock/paper/scissors thing.

Detaunt ignore is extremely strong and is almost questionable on the BG, for WH/WE that would be a major increase in power. Maybe a partial Taunt/Detaunt ignore but 100% resist would be too much, imo.

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Skullgrin
Posts: 552

Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#36 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:06 pm

This is actually a very cool idea!

My only problem with it is that I'd want it to be a 3 second channel ability with an animation of the WH/WE actually consecrating/desecrating the corpse. :lol:

Since the Dev team does not yet have the ability to add in animations, I guess I'll just have to use my imagination if this is ever implemented. :P
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Honshu
Banned
Posts: 26

Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#37 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:19 pm

teiloh wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:57 pm
WE/WH here are a bit different from traditional stealth classes, and have especially been nerfed on a lower crit server. IMO there are a lot of buffs we can implement for the pairing that makes them strong and desirable in group+
Well, name some that don't boil down to "boost their DPS." Because the DPS isn't the problem, not exactly. It's the inability for their single target DPS to matter on large scale encounters.
teiloh wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:57 pm
Detaunt ignore is extremely strong and is almost questionable on the BG, for WH/WE that would be a major increase in power. Maybe a partial Taunt/Detaunt ignore but 100% resist would be too much, imo.
Let me walk you through how a Witch Hunter approaches a backline during a group engagement, and the general flow of what happens.

Firstly, he may well have to take round-about pathing because the front line will quite possibly see him due to stealth detection mechanics.

Secondly, he has to give up a not inconsiderable amount of AP while he paths, hoping he can reach his target within that 30 seconds, and depending on his angle of attack, people may well have seen him in the distance before he stealthed, and now they know he's likely stealthing towards them, giving said backline time for counterplay.

Thirdly, upon reaching his target and unleashing his stealth opener, he is almost immediately thereafter subjected to a detaunt which nerfs his damage by half, with absolutely zero counterplay beyond "use your knockdown before he uses his detaunt and try to kill him in that period of time." If you have managed to kill this healer in the period of you knockdown, congratulations, please skip to section Fourthly C. More likely than not, he got up and detaunted you, and after detaunt is applied, you are now hitting this healer with a wet noodle while he begins to self-heal. Here is where things tend to branch off.

Fourthly A: His teammates have now noticed your unwelcome intrusion into their backline. You now likely have a couple or Sorcs, a Magnus or two, and of course the rest of the healers responding to you with some backup heals on your target and timestamp burst with your name on it. You have approximately three seconds from this point until you die, unless you have some wildly out of position healer trying to group heal you from around a corner or something, or unless you use your Sanctified Oil and run for the hills.

Fourthly B: The healer you targeted presses his AoE knockback button and now you are nowhere near your target, because you almost certainly don't have immunity given the time you spent stealthing around trying to jockey a way over to the backline. You have about three seconds from this point to break line of sight, or you die.

Note that at this point all your presence has done is cost a healer a 60s cooldown, and his backline some split attention that likely resulted in your death. If that healer finds himself out of position and a White Lion or two can hop on him during this timing window, well, cool, I guess. Best case scenario; you escaped with your life and soon you can try to "pressure" a backline character again by forcing them to, uh, use a detaunt on you so you hit like a wet noodle while they get dogpiled with heals. Worst case scenario, you are dead behind enemy lines and are now respawning somewhere far from the battle.

Fourthly C: You managed to kill your target against all odds, and you now have about three seconds to live. Absolute best case scenario is that Sanctified Oil lets you break line of sight and get a stealth off so you can prepare for your next run by regenerating AP and waiting for your stealth cd, so likely at least one full minute before you're actually participating in the battle again. More likely, however, is that the backline zeroed in and slammed you with enough nukes and dots to kill you. You are far from any possible resurrection and are now respawning somewhere far from the battle and it will likely be at least several minutes before you are participating again. The person you killed can be safely revived by his teammates and continue to contribute to the fight within moments.

And I hasten to remind you that during all of that first and second step, the Witch Hunter is applying zero DPS to the enemy warband. He is trying to apply positional pressure by springing onto an unsuspecting target. If he were replaced with a Slayer, he would be racking up DPS numbers, applying a healthy amount of pressure to the frontline.

That is literal thousands of DPS that you, as a WB leader, are giving up so that Witch Hunter has a chance to walk at a backline and then get immediately detaunted and killed, detaunted and knocked away, or maybe kill his target and then die, with the absolute best case scenario being that he inconveniences the backline by forcing them to revive the target he killed, while the Witch Hunter has to run like hell out of LoS and wait about a minute or so before he can safely approach again, all the while he is not dealing any damage.

What part of this process makes you think that having a tool to provide more counterplay to the detaunt game than absolutely none at all is "too much"?

You can claim all you want that stealthers aren't "conventional assassins," but they bring absolutely nothing else to group fight dynamics, especially so now that morale bombing has been cut off at the knee. All this trying to lean away from letting a damn stealth character actually sneak up and kill somebody has done is make them worthless characters. And what's the alternative? Have them lean in on other classes' roles and dilute the differences between MDPS classes?

And I get it, dude. I do. I was there on first week WHO where Witch Elves were the bane of everyone's existence and tore through you in the span of 2 seconds. I GET IT. But there is zero counterplay with the detaunt mechanic and stealthers as they exist right now, there is zero opportunity for good stealth players to make plays on an enemy backline unless they are just horrendously overgeared and playing against total scrubs. That should change.

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Rydiak
Posts: 364

Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#38 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:20 pm

Could use the animation when you set something on fire with a torch.
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velenne
Posts: 81

Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#39 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:00 am

Honshu layin' it down right now. My man. I appreciate your restraint actually; I could dogpile on with a dozen other outcomes to that scenario.

But you hit it on the head and goes back to the thread I started in the Empire forum: there's nothing WH/WE's do that other MDPS classes don't do better. We have no niche, no role, no function, no upside. This thread is my attempt to address that.

teiloh
Posts: 281

Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#40 » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:04 am

Honshu wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:19 pm

Well, name some that don't boil down to "boost their DPS." Because the DPS isn't the problem, not exactly. It's the inability for their single target DPS to matter on large scale encounters.

I put up a list of ideas here viewtopic.php?f=15&t=37269

Every DPS has to deal with detaunt which is a core feature of the game. 100% ignore is an effective +100% DPS against healers and sometimes DPS.

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