How to change the meta with one ability

[Dackle]

6v6 ers are like wha?

[Melkoroth]

Clearly I must be in the minority opinion because I have suggested something like this before, but this nonsense about making it a separate ability with a cooldown is totally the opposite of what I would do.

If I were the devs, I would either make such an anti-rez ability be applied as a debuff when using any of the stealth based attacks (if you want to kinda pigeon-hole WE and WH into only being able to achieve that sort of power when actively being an assassin and making use of the stealth mechanic), or make it apply when a killing blow is achieved through an Execution or Frenzy (if you want to allow a little more flexibility, so a WE or WH could join the melee train and still provide this useful power as long as they're good at landing killing blows). Making it act as a whole separate ability, much less an ability that has a cooldown measured in minutes, means that each WE/WH has frankly negligible impact. The opportunity cost of having a stealther in your WB is still painfully high if all you're getting is maybe the ability to deny one rez every minute or three, especially given how, with detaunts being what they are, the ability for a stealther to actually go and solo someone, at best, results in a 1 for 1 trade, at worst a dead stealther behind enemy lines. Think about it; for every Witch Hunter you take, you're NOT getting a White Lion, or you're NOT getting a Slayer. Is that really worth it if all Witch Hunters can do is deny a rez every minute or three, and only then if they manage to kill someone and then awkwardly use a skill on a corpse?

No, if anti-rez is going to be a thing, it should be a thing that can be applied semi-frequently, and something that is integrated with the rest of their kit. Something that can be applied a couple times a minute as long as the stealther if good enough and has the opportunity to strike. And that "skill" should be measured by one's ability to either make use of stealth (not the easiest thing in a pitched battle because of current stealth detection rules and AoE being what it is, nevermind the raw AP cost of stealthing), or by last hitting with Executions/Frenzies (obviously gets easier the higher stacks you get, but those aren't the easiest thing to build during a melee train, so in effect, this creates a system that lowers the skill floor for getting anti-rez off when you're off doing the solo assassinating thing, but makes it much higher for getting anti-rez off when you're part of a melee train). If there's a concern about level 1 Executes still being too easy for particularly well geared players to get killing blows with, then maybe gatekeep the anti-rez effect by making it so you require 3 or 5 points before that effect will apply.

Personally, I think that since the Witch Hunter and Witch Elf have a mastery tree that tries to make them something of a melee train character (Confession/Carnage), making Frenzies/Executions apply anti-rez is better than applying it through stealth attacks, and either method is far better than tacking on a "destroy corpse" ability or whatever, that requires a lightly armored melee class to stop and fiddle around next to a slain player in the middle of a pitched battle.

If you catch yourself thinking that this is zomgOP, remind yourself of the opportunity cost of taking a WH/WE instead of one of the other MDPS classes. They NEED something good enough to make them actually worth taking.

This.

Not really a fan of targeting corpses while I could be just adding DPS to my WB as I should. Not really a fan of dropping a DMG tactic for some utility either given the state of our DMG.

I could see a Blessed Bullet that gives a Terror debuff to ppl like the PvE mobs do.

In any case... what about real WB utility instead of some weird new mechanic introduced?

[toffikx]

6v6 ers are like wha?

Not only 2-6 groups of any kind, everything up to 24 people. Imagine a warband fight where a couple of assisted WH/WE players quickly kill of 2-3 players and prevent them from rezzing.
Ideas like this can lead to a lot, lot of gameplay problems.
I’m all up for buffing WH/WE to be more WB viable. But not like this.

[Honshu]

This sounds like something that would be absolutely awful to be the target of, and would be very frustrating for healers.

Frankly, healers should be frustrated by stealthers. I think RoR has really spoiled their healing crowd. Stealthers are not only frustrated in efforts to disrupt backlines by virtue of the natural advantage backliners have by being deep inside their own team, but between the detaunts and self peel through aoe knockbacks, even lone healers have little to fear from lone stealthers.

Stealthers are the one mdps class that I think should have some sort of detaunt blocking ability as a core part of their kit. Not a tactic, a simple 2-3 duration self buff with a 15s or so cd that simply prevents detaunts from affecting the stealther for the duration of the buff, so healers have to either try to detaunt around that (so the stealther is allowed a few seconds of being able to apply damage freely) or the healer detaunts and it gets blocked (and the stealther is rewarded by mind gaming the healer with free unobstructed access to that healer’s colon :p). Tanks should be forced to respond to their back line being harried, engineers and magnus should be incentivized to form static defenses that act to counter the efforts of stealthers, healers should get their one knock back as a get out of jail free card so their team has time to respond to a stealther trying to wreak havoc on them, but if their team doesn’t respond, all things being equal (equally geared healer can equally geared stealther), a stealther should be able to be rewarded with a kill that can’t just be magic wanded away through the 5 other healers casting a Rez.

Because, again, you NEED to think of the opportunity costs here. While the stealther is jockeying to threaten backlines and applying POSITIONING pressure, he is NOT playing a Slayer/Choppa slicing and dicing the front lines and applying HEALING pressure to the healers spamming heals trying desperately to keep everyone alive. It is a different sort of pressure and it needs to be respected and rewarded, and with the game state being what it is, it simply isn’t, and therefore nobody wants stealthers in a WB.

That idea is a bit beyond the scope of this thread, I grant, but I am just trying to illustrate the real problems facing a stealther’s ability to meaningfully contribute. Because all his efforts are rebuffed through a healer’s many tools, he cannot apply positioning pressure, because nobody cares where the stealther is, because any target he picks on will not be in danger of dying, and even if he *does* manage to get a kill despite these odds stacked against him, the healer waves a magic wand, revives the friendly corpse deep in friendly backlines, and life carries on while the stealther lays dead or is chased off, having ultimately accomplished little to nothing.

[Honshu]

In any case... what about real WB utility instead of some weird new mechanic introduced?

I mean, ensuring that focused targets are removed from the battlefield so that you can actually bring battles to a close without the now defunct morale bombs is amazing utility, and I think given the goals and the design of stealther classes it is wholly within their scope. They contribute less overall dps than Slayers and White Lions do, but they are surgical tools compared to wrecking balls.

What sort of benefit do you think they should provide in the way of utility? Because morale is overall less important, and I don’t really see either witch hunters or witch elves as “buff” classes. Certainly I don’t think they should have lots of opportunity for AOE, that’s the Slayer and Choppa’s shtick.

So as a general principle, what else is there aside from giving them abilities to make their single target damage more meaningful? Please note that I am carefully choosing my words here; I don’t necessarily think the problem is that their damage is “too low,” I think it is too *ignorable,* which is a different problem that requires a different solution. I remember the live days where stealthers could pop you like a pimple before you could even do anything, and I am not eager to return to them.

[velenne]

I'm agreeing more and more with Honshu as the discussion evolves. The opportunity cost of not dealing damage while you try to use an ability is too great for a DPS class in light armor.

I'm tempted to make it one of the Bullet selections, but again, I don't want to limit the class so much. This ability will immediately become fundamental to the meta and ensure WH/WE's always have a place in RvR.

To that end, I propose the following revision:

Condemn/Desecrate: Requires Incognito. Builds 2 Accusations. Ailment; 5 ft. Range; No AP Cost; No Cooldown Blah blah flavor text; You deal no damage but apply a debuff to your target. If your target dies in the next 20 seconds, they automatically respawn with no chance for a ressurrection.

This means you have to have your stealth up to do it. If you spec into Sanctified Oil, you can do it twice in 60 seconds, effectively removing two targets from the battlefield only if: a) you can reach your target in stealth before getting popped, and b.) you (or your group) can successfully down the target in a 20 second window of opportunity.

Now if I'm a WH and I know they have a WE, I'm doing it to the WE first, and she's probably trying to use it on me!

[Joshwa70]

Snipe and counter snipe, the game within the game. Which would be cool because we are obviously all playing our own game anyways.

[stealthc98]

I'd be fine with an Anti-Detaunt tactic like BG has in one of its trees.

[Acidic]

The argument that preventing Rez is too strong would also work to suggest rezzing is over powered and should be constrained in some way

[Honshu]

To that end, I propose the following revision:

Condemn/Desecrate: Requires Incognito. Builds 2 Accusations. Ailment; 5 ft. Range; No AP Cost; No Cooldown Blah blah flavor text; You deal no damage but apply a debuff to your target. If your target dies in the next 20 seconds, they automatically respawn with no chance for a ressurrection.

This means you have to have your stealth up to do it. If you spec into Sanctified Oil, you can do it twice in 60 seconds, effectively removing two targets from the battlefield only if: a) you can reach your target in stealth before getting popped, and b.) you (or your group) can successfully down the target in a 20 second window of opportunity.

My only issue with this ability as written is that I do not think it allows for much skill expression. In other words, if you sat a very skilled Witch Hunter player next to a very new Witch Hunter player, and had them both try to contribute to a WB by *just* applying this skill, the results would be basically the same; stealth, walk along the melee train, use the skill, repeat. Obviously there is a bit more to it than that, and more things they could be doing than just spamming this one skill, but I am trying to illustrate what skill expression looks like; it looks like a skilled player making significant impacts in a battle, and an unskilled player missing the opportunity to do so.

This is why I advocated primarily for this effect being a function of achieving a killing blow through an Execution rather than a simple “debuff “ applied through stealth, because it is much harder to guarantee a killing blow in the chaos of group combat, and a stealther with a disciplined and attentive head on his shoulders will be able to more consistently get this “anti-Rez” effect off than one who doesn’t.

And again, there’s knobs we can turn here to ensure one or two witch hunters don’t negate healers ability to Rez entirely with minimal effort. Requiring a certain level of mechanic points before the anti Rez effect could take place is one way of doing it. Coding the anti Rez effect to make it so the victim simply can’t be revived for a period of time instead of being unable to be revived at all is another.

Remember, all this is just an effort to make stealther damage LESS IGNORABLE and allow skilled stealthers to do BETTER than unskilled stealthers. I think this can be better achieved through requiring attentive play from a Stealther by saving his Executions for just the right moment, rather than just having him walk up to a dude, press a button, and waiting for the melee train to do its thing.