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How to change the meta with one ability

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Honshu
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Posts: 26

Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#11 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:12 am

Clearly I must be in the minority opinion because I have suggested something like this before, but this nonsense about making it a separate ability with a cooldown is totally the opposite of what I would do.

If I were the devs, I would either make such an anti-rez ability be applied as a debuff when using any of the stealth based attacks (if you want to kinda pigeon-hole WE and WH into only being able to achieve that sort of power when actively being an assassin and making use of the stealth mechanic), or make it apply when a killing blow is achieved through an Execution or Frenzy (if you want to allow a little more flexibility, so a WE or WH could join the melee train and still provide this useful power as long as they're good at landing killing blows). Making it act as a whole separate ability, much less an ability that has a cooldown measured in minutes, means that each WE/WH has frankly negligible impact. The opportunity cost of having a stealther in your WB is still painfully high if all you're getting is maybe the ability to deny one rez every minute or three, especially given how, with detaunts being what they are, the ability for a stealther to actually go and solo someone, at best, results in a 1 for 1 trade, at worst a dead stealther behind enemy lines. Think about it; for every Witch Hunter you take, you're NOT getting a White Lion, or you're NOT getting a Slayer. Is that really worth it if all Witch Hunters can do is deny a rez every minute or three, and only then if they manage to kill someone and then awkwardly use a skill on a corpse?

No, if anti-rez is going to be a thing, it should be a thing that can be applied semi-frequently, and something that is integrated with the rest of their kit. Something that can be applied a couple times a minute as long as the stealther if good enough and has the opportunity to strike. And that "skill" should be measured by one's ability to either make use of stealth (not the easiest thing in a pitched battle because of current stealth detection rules and AoE being what it is, nevermind the raw AP cost of stealthing), or by last hitting with Executions/Frenzies (obviously gets easier the higher stacks you get, but those aren't the easiest thing to build during a melee train, so in effect, this creates a system that lowers the skill floor for getting anti-rez off when you're off doing the solo assassinating thing, but makes it much higher for getting anti-rez off when you're part of a melee train). If there's a concern about level 1 Executes still being too easy for particularly well geared players to get killing blows with, then maybe gatekeep the anti-rez effect by making it so you require 3 or 5 points before that effect will apply.

Personally, I think that since the Witch Hunter and Witch Elf have a mastery tree that tries to make them something of a melee train character (Confession/Carnage), making Frenzies/Executions apply anti-rez is better than applying it through stealth attacks, and either method is far better than tacking on a "destroy corpse" ability or whatever, that requires a lightly armored melee class to stop and fiddle around next to a slain player in the middle of a pitched battle.

If you catch yourself thinking that this is zomgOP, remind yourself of the opportunity cost of taking a WH/WE instead of one of the other MDPS classes. They NEED something good enough to make them actually worth taking.

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Acidic
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Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#12 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:19 am

This sounds interesting, especially with the 24vs24 and some of the fights that are long/never ending fights, having a way to counter the res train could be interesting. Mild version of pumpkins

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Kragg
Posts: 1650

Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#13 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:09 am

Zxul wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:45 pm
As a healer with experience of that event where some kegs would prevent resurrection, die :P
Seconded :D
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gglanouille
Posts: 27

Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#14 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:05 am

But ? if you give them a M1 that bring a debuff "your target can't be ressurected", lasting 60s, it can be balanced, no ?
The effect last 60s, 60s cooldown (morale cooldown), and if your target die during this time he instant release to the camp healer (or to jail if in Fort).
Or this is supposed to me a more often effect, but cleansable (or with a less powerful effect) ?

velenne
Posts: 81

Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#15 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:09 pm

Honshu wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:12 am
If you catch yourself thinking that this is zomgOP, remind yourself of the opportunity cost of taking a WH/WE instead of one of the other MDPS classes. They NEED something good enough to make them actually worth taking.
Absolutely well said. Agree on all points.

teiloh
Posts: 278

Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#16 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:27 pm

This sounds like something that would be absolutely awful to be the target of, and would be very frustrating for healers. Huge griefing tool as well, and potentially awkward for the WH/WE to use.

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Nekkma
Posts: 500

Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#17 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:29 pm

teiloh wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:27 pm
This sounds like something that would be absolutely awful to be the target of, and would be very frustrating for healers. Huge griefing tool as well, and potentially awkward for the WH/WE to use.
This. If they need buffs or better WB viability find some other way.
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2760

Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#18 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:40 pm

I would modify it to: ... can't be affected by ressurecting abilities while the caster is in combat.

However, there are some not so fun implications of a skill like this. Like dileberatly applying it on warband/party leaders gona have a massive effect on the tactical meta game. Probobly not a good idea tbh.

A self ressurection skill with similar modifications like Alter Fate on WE/WH would be intreasting tho.
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Akalukz
Posts: 757

Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#19 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:00 pm

Could make it more along the lines of a proc on kisses or whatever. Possibly make change it to an active debuff on healer... preventing affected healer from rezzing anyone for say 30 seconds.
-= Agony =-

Brickson
Posts: 46

Re: How to change the meta with one ability

Post#20 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:04 pm

I like the general idea and picked it up for a list of possible WH changes, which I posted in another thread (viewtopic.php?f=15&t=38865&p=420519#p420519)

I would prefer a skill over a passive effect. Sure it could be a bit stressful to use it in a bigger fight. But it would be something that you have real control over. In my opinion it would be too random if only killing blows or killing blows through finisher would trigger the effect. The more players you have involved in the fight the lower your influence on getting the killing blow is.
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