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Long Overdue WE/WH

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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
velenne
Posts: 92

Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#31 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:25 pm

wargrimnir wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:07 pm
velenne wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:54 pm
wargrimnir wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:01 pm

Every class could use a little something if we dig into them. Other priorities are up first. We have some backlog already and adding more can be distracting. My statement wasn't to dismiss any discussion on them, but to set expectations that we're not likely to make significant changes in the near future.
That makes me super sad. There have been several lively discussions recently in the Empire forum about the sad state of WH, with lots of great feedback and ideas, especially as it pertains to the unclear vision of the class.
One of the common things that people seem to spin around on is a desire to have some AOE focused build. We've dismissed that in the past, it's simply not a function that WH or WE performs outside of a few abilities. One such ability was quietly used in combination with a bug, that's what set off a lot of people to start their forum threads about poor balance. Many other conversations about building class identity are far more interesting to follow, but this AOE stuff always comes up. I feel if I were to jump into each thread to crush that desire we wouldn't get nearly as much conversation related to other aspects of the class.

When we do eventually get around to a balance pass for WH/WE, chances are the people who have kept a measured response to the state of the class will be listened to over doomsayers. WE/WH really excels in one thing, stealth. No one else has that one thing, nothing comes close to it. It's not a function that will put them over the top in 6v6, it's not a function that has strong demand in the current warband meta, but it's still a uniquely powerful ability, and core to the class identity. AOE is certainly not. That's broadly why we're comfortable with the (perhaps situationally underpeforming) state of the class, although again, anything could have improvements made when we get a chance to focus on them.
Couldn't agree more about the AoE bit, and I'm heartened to see that you agree. Single-target DPS seemed to be the heart of the original vision of the class, but it's been weakened to the point that it no longer fits this vision. The stealth mechanic, as it currently stands, is quite frustrating to use and rely upon.

I said this elsewhere, but the vision of the class isn't being met and this is evidenced in two fundamental areas of the game: oRvR and Cities. WH's are a rare sight in oRVR. I've been dismissed from more than one warband during a city queue due to my choice of class ("Sorry, but WH = lose city" is the quote). This story is all too common. WH's need a niche to fill during these encounters, something that can contribute to the group's effectiveness. I've suggested an ability to prohibit resurrections, so that things we kill are forced to respawn.

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blasras
Posts: 15

Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#32 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:43 pm

I don't think AoE is the core of the issue, the problem is high end gear is gated behind warband content, and stealth as strong as it is doesn't contribute much if not anything to a warband setting. So what are you suggesting? That you'll have content where stealth helps you get high end gear?

Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#33 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:51 pm

blasras wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:43 pm I don't think AoE is the core of the issue, the problem is high end gear is gated behind warband content, and stealth as strong as it is doesn't contribute much if not anything to a warband setting. So what are you suggesting? That you'll have content where stealth helps you get high end gear?
You are not excluded from that content as WH/WE, so it is very possible to get the gear, even without premade warbands.
Dying is no option.

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catholicism198
Posts: 1092

Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#34 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:32 am

Sulorie wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:51 pm
blasras wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:43 pm I don't think AoE is the core of the issue, the problem is high end gear is gated behind warband content, and stealth as strong as it is doesn't contribute much if not anything to a warband setting. So what are you suggesting? That you'll have content where stealth helps you get high end gear?
You are not excluded from that content as WH/WE, so it is very possible to get the gear, even without premade warbands.
Yup. Play destro and get it in a month or play order and get it in two years.

amagawd
Posts: 127

Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#35 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:12 pm

BelligerentBob wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:10 pm Spec to kill people not spec to parry mdps to death ~_~
First u parry then u kill. WH ganks are the worst for a melee. And the best for a WH
Klindor - 83 - retired
Iprotecc - 82 - holding doors
Isushi - pugging

furiesenvy
Posts: 3

Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#36 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:23 pm

How about adjust +melee power, seems OP to me ~.~

Icarium
Posts: 8

Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#37 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:46 pm

I think it's a shame that it isn't in any future plans but I can see why. I do however feel that now SW has been buffed and is up to par that the two classes that now need a buff the most are WH and WE. I'm not sure what you have in mind but imo for class changes these two definitely need it more than others.

velenne
Posts: 92

Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#38 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:20 am

Just got out of a city, never felt more worthless as a WH. There is just literally nothing we bring to the table now that SH not only do more damage, but can drain morale. At least I had dragon gun man...

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Dwayyo
Posts: 3

Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#39 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:27 am

Maybe a tactic that scales damage/lowers stealth CD/reduces AoE damage taken depending on the number of nearby enemy players would help in bigger group settings? Perhaps a stealth CD reset if you get a kill?

I don't play either class and am still quite new to the game so not sure if that would make sense, just throwing an idea out there.

The fantasy I have in mind would be that of an assassin working its way through enemy lines, causing chaos until it is caught but still single target only.

Huurl
Posts: 33

Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#40 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:11 pm

Very fine. I agree. WE/WH's features are not aoe pressure or being solid.
Their core is more about stealth and single target threat. Nowadays the threat is too low. Any detaunt leave the WE/WH in the open with his light armor expecting a death that will occur very soon...
"Kill or die" play style. Fine. But now most of the time it is "die"...
On live I remember that WE/WH were feared. Healers called for help, tanks were looking carefully for their back... Agonising Wounds is a powerful device eventhough it can be countered by a detaunt or a bump.
Those days are gone and nowadays WE/WH are the last pick in BG, Orvr and cities. They can do damage but they can be killed very easily. The balance between damage output and survival is wrong.

Being brittle is fine as long as you can be a threat. To do so I can think of :
-there was tactic that gave 5% crit chance per Accusation/Blood Lust. It helped a lot to be threatening. It has to be build and will be exausted if you use Frenzy or Execution.
-the beastlord set bonus should be For for 3 pieces and weapon skill for 4 pieces (instead of WS for 3 piece and For for 4 piece) since Force is more important than WS for WE/WH.
-I like the idea of scaling damage/stealth CD. Not sure about aoe damage mitigation since you have to find a path among aoe or go around thanks to stealth not to walk through them.
-maybe a damage buff out of stealth not just a discount on AP...
-An insane idea for an overpowered tool shoud be to ignore detaunt. I'd love it but it could be far too strong even though it would stress the assassin play style.

Anyway I am very glad to read that devs may consider rework those classes. Even though they are not in the top of their to-do-list, this is a glimp of hope that is heartwarming. Those classes are awesome. They offer an incredible gameplay where the risks are high but the rewards can be high too. I understand that a balance should be found and a too low time to kill can be frustrating for those who get killed but when I see what can do WL/mSH, BW/sorc, slayer/choppa and the recent SW... I think there should be room there for WE/WH among the useful dps classes after a rework.

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