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WH/WE Warband utillity

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2760

WH/WE Warband utillity

Post#1 » Thu May 28, 2020 6:52 pm

The issue:
These two classes have for most of the game's existence been a complete mess to balance for all stages of the game. The nature of single target burst damage doesn't translate very well over to large scale group combat, where environmental factors like bottlenecks and sieges completely blocks the classes to to infiltrate, which is their intended use. Combine it with the fact that you have to demount to get into stealth in the first place, which is gonna lag you behind in any kind of surprise attack. Lets face it, the mounts, that everyone have access to, are better surprise tools then stealth are for large scale combat. WL/SW/SH leaps/teleport just have much better functionality for getting into the enemy back line due to no setbacks, no travel time and no risk of getting detected. The other problem these two classes have is the lack of having a functional AoE spec that follows the flow of large scale combat, which revolves around PBAoE fighting strategies. The classes also suffers from low armor classes compared to the other melee dps. Under perfect conditions warbands would clash in the open terrain and WH/WE could support the main vanguard by infiltrating into the enemy back lines and put pressure on the healers, but these kinda situations is few and far between. Lets face it, large scale is about front vs front, massive wipes from behind, or slow pushes trough barracks. WE/WH arn't very useful under said circumstances.
So what you're left with is a dps class that got a archetype mechanic that isn't very functional, that got low damage mitigation and in reference to other classes poor in execution AoE dps builds.

The suggestion:
I haven't really thought trough every single possible situation were this could go wrong, (could possible be OP in 6v6, if the classes see any play there?) but I think the Relics/Elixirs, as they currently functions could be group wide buffs and would provide excellent group utility to a point were you could utilize them as full on game tactics. Imagine having Slayers with 50% more pen, a group suddenly have 100% disrupt when being flanked by a warband of Sorcs or giving a Magus or Engineer stealth and then 50% run speed increase to charge up and pull.

I'm not saying this would completely fix the classes. I still think the AoE builds needs to have the same feel and flow as Mara/Slayer have tbh, and not just two skill spam and then M2.
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teiloh
Posts: 246

Re: WH/WE Warband utillity

Post#2 » Thu May 28, 2020 8:26 pm

Having some sort of group/wb utility on the elixirs could be a nice change but having them provide the full effect would make them the best abilities in the game, by far.

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blasras
Posts: 15

Re: WH/WE Warband utillity

Post#3 » Fri May 29, 2020 12:37 am

My question is, do the devs have the intention of having every class to be as strong as other classes in every content for the game? Like is the WE/WH limited viability a consequence of the poor balancing, or a consequence of the player built meta not having room for their tools? Because if it's a chase of the players forcing certain strats abusing specific classes, it would be a never ending struggle to keep all the melee archetypes playable, whenever one shows particularly proficiency towards new strategies the rest of the melee classes would be ostracized. Otherwise the the classes would be entirely generic and you would almost pick them just based on looks.

I think raw data is required, some comparisson in real scenarios, and determine how far behind is their survivability and damage compared to every other melee class in every type of content. Maybe add a toggle ability that trades a % of their single target potential into aoe, and another tactic that turns some defense stats into damage? so you could build more tanky without sacrificing all your dps, but still can go glass cannon if you desire and your group is built around that. Do they ever run public tests? or is everything done internally? it would be really hard for them to make fixes, and then the community min/maxing everything in unexpected ways so most of the work could be lost, or the main problems could remain pretty much the same without solving the core issues.

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Wdova
Posts: 525

Re: WH/WE Warband utillity

Post#4 » Fri May 29, 2020 4:05 am

Sadly, but WHs are not even the best with busting backline doing single target damage. There are mdps like WL or aSW with better mobility, survivability and burst.

I would be OK with fact, that WE/WH never get any descent AOE spec, but for love of God why they have same bonuses and critical chance on gear as a slayer who doesnt need to crit as much to deal damage?

If we are suppose to be single target killers only, we need tools for that. More crit, better procs on gear for example.


I expect this thread to be closed down soon same as was closed my thread about razor strike and sweeping razor tactic improvements.

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Martok
Posts: 1043
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Re: WH/WE Warband utillity

Post#5 » Fri May 29, 2020 4:24 am

User Edit
Last edited by Martok on Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Wdova
Posts: 525

Re: WH/WE Warband utillity

Post#6 » Fri May 29, 2020 4:41 am

Martok wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 4:24 am
This has been talked about soooooooo many times, like totally, so my advice is frak the zerg play scenarios and you will be fine. I even did a video about it. It was called "The Lowby Blues." But it should have been called "Frak the Zerg."

"Frak the zerg, Frak the zerg, have a little fun and frak the zerg!"

A Britany Spears classic.
But not solo ranked ones. Last time I checked score board first WH was on 125th place with negative win/lose score.

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Martok
Posts: 1043
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Re: WH/WE Warband utillity

Post#7 » Fri May 29, 2020 4:58 am

Wdova wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 4:41 am
But not solo ranked ones. Last time I checked score board first WH was on 125th place with negative win/lose score.

True dat.

desizt
Posts: 101

Re: WH/WE Warband utillity

Post#8 » Fri May 29, 2020 5:12 am

The only thing that WE needs is a viable burst...

Good luck killing any decent healer when getting to the backline. WL/mSH/aSW does way better job at that

For a ganker class, WE/WH is very underwhelming compared to what it was on live and it's whole role is being overshadowed by many different classes.

It became from high risk, high reward to high risk, usually no reward kind of class. And it's not l2p issue either, it just lacks burst - the only thing really that matters for this class and what it was intended for.

There's no need for any group utility or AoE if the class would be able to perform it's role properly, which it currently can't and that's a fact.

I personally stopped playing "bursty" WE and went with the tanky hp-regen build instead for solo 1vX fights - time to kill is even slower but at least you can brawl decently vs several enemies and beat up WLs. But it's not how I want to play a WE, I could play Mara for that, which performs even better.

Played WE to rr100 on live and it saddens me that it's such a wet noodle here. Though that will probably never change.
Last edited by desizt on Fri May 29, 2020 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Fey
Posts: 499

Re: WH/WE Warband utillity

Post#9 » Fri May 29, 2020 5:16 am

Would a group buff of 100% disrupt for 7 seconds on a 60 sec CD be the best normal ability in the game? Honest question I don't know, comparing this stuff is very subjective.
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Rumpel
Posts: 182

Re: WH/WE Warband utillity

Post#10 » Fri May 29, 2020 7:26 am

I'm so bored of masszerg with my Mara that im glad there is a class like Witch Elf , which plays totally different from that.

The class as it is is super fun for me, with its whole possibilities and its unique playstile.

I would say, let it stay as it is and if you like to masszerg I think you have to chose another class.

@soloing with Mara. He isn't that good in such things because he hasnt that utility's like Witch Elves. WEs have so much possibilities to stay alive and counter spells... I'm missing with Mara.
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