First, let me say I was not expecting this post to get this much traffic, nor was I trying to start a flame war. I did not expect that ASW's performance in 6v6 or in general would be such a contentious topic. Let's try our best to keep the discussion on the point on hand, rather than being at each other's throats
Also, let me state that these ideas aren't novel or anything. Many other players have voiced similar suggestions, so I'm not alone in thinking this. My main intent in this thread was to collate these ideas in a coherent format and lay out the rationale of why these improvements make sense
Arbich wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 4:40 am
The increased speed after pounce is one of the worst changes on this server (makes no sense to give this tool a class with already quite high mobility)
...
The statement that your proposal doesnt change the damage output of ASW is wrong. You propose changes to the offensive capabilities of the ASW and not to his escape tools (and even then your claim would be doubtful).
While I hate being on the receiving end of Pounce too, I totally disagree and think that the increased speed is necessary for the ability to function given the particulars of this game. The game is notorious for having position desync issues to begin with, and when you add in the travel time and lag present in RvR situations adding a short movement speed buff is the only reasonable way to allow it to function as a gap closer by letting the player correct the game's technical shortcomings. The buff is dispelled after a single attack, and simply allows the ability to function as it's intended, which is to allow the player to hit their target
once
I'm really confused by your last point...these changes don't affect the damage or offensive capability at all. They simply allow the class to use its skills in a more functional and consistent manner. Similar functionality was implemented on other classes likely for these exact same reasons
Manatikik wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 4:54 am
Definitely don't need a melee snare; swap to skirmish when moving into a target or as it starts to get away from you.
Snare break component on Swift Strikes could be interesting; but a new ability seems like overkill. The only argument for a snare breaker on ASW is the fact WP/DoK get one; but thats a pretty weak argument.
Shadowstep does NOT need the boost component. If anything to increase the mobility would be to reduce the CD to 10s to match Pounce/Squig Leap but then you'd have to address the Defensive proc portion of it. The tradeoff to have less mobility is you still can stay on targets/debuff your targets as compensation.
The only realistic changes ASW needs is Grim Slash to 25 ap (why is your spam-base attack 35 ap is beyond me) and possibly address Sinister Assault to actually ignore all armor and not just the first 75% (haven't tested this in a few months could be fixed by now).
As mentioned, swapping to use Takedown locks you out of doing damage/having armor for 5 seconds and prevents any meaningful damage rotation after first contact. Technically, mSHs are equally capable of sticking to their target by doing the same thing, but I don't think I've ever heard of anybody doing that
I will concede that the added snare break is a bit questionable. I mainly added it as a discussion point as that's been the second most common suggestion I've seen from frustrated players(after improving Shadowstep of course). My development direction would likely be the first two changes to see how they pan out before considering the snare break.
I agree that a Swift Strikes snare break could be interesting, but a reliable slow is just so much more straight forward. Swapping to a nearby target to use the channel to get to where you really need to go is just weird and makes no logical sense.
See above reply - the movement speed buff is a necessary evil to make the ability functional given the technical particulars of the game, and the situation is made worse by the slow travel speed on Shadowstep. A lower cooldown does nothing if the skill can't get you to where you need to be in the first place 70% of the time.
Bug fixes are always good, but I disagree on the AP reduction to Grim Slash. Quickly looking at the career builder many other MDPS have spammables in the 35-40 range, with a few at 30. Decreasing to 30 could be justified, but 25 is too much as AP is intended to be a limiter on damage output that applies to all classes(save those with AP restores)
Grock wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 9:06 am
You have gapcloser and selfpunt and
ranged CC
Aren't you supposed to have
some weaknesses?
Its already better mdps than some actual mdps.
It should've never been what it is, it should've been a hybrid, not a full on mdps
As mentioned above, the gap closer is often nonfunctional in its current form and the proposed change simply makes it function as intended. The ranged knockdown is a 13 point ability in Skirmish and cannot be taken with Shadowstep or any reasonable Assault build(I agree that would be obnoxious)
adamthelc wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:00 pm
Feomatar1 wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 6:33 pm
adamthelc wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 3:50 pm
Give up the pounce and I am fine with them having basic mdps tool kit. 10 sec immunity, charge and short CD melee snare
Stuff
No. Keep pounce and its mobility or have the same gap closer and ability to stick to a target as a slayer.
aSW is a single tree, it doesnt need to be as well rounded as every other mdps. It just needs to have basic tools required to function. A slayers mobility kit allows it to function. Every class doesn't need the mobility and movement control of a WL to function as mDPS.
mSH and mSW should have never gotten a pounce in the first place. Now they have them, they don't deserve even more without giving anything up. SH should probably have some of its tools taken away actually.
What you've stated is actually pretty in line with what I've already proposed above in this post. A rectified Shadowstep allows it to function as a primary gap closer, which fills the same role as Charge on a Slayer but requires a 15 point mastery investment. This and a reliable slow would give an ASW the basic tools to stick to their target and perform their function, which in their current state they struggle to.
As I mentioned above, the snare break is the more questionable of these items. Changing this many things at once is definitely hard to theorycraft and I think more incremental play testing could be a better approach. My recommendation would be to go with the first two proposals and after playtesting evaluate if the third is warranted