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ASW - Improvements to ability to maintain melee range

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Manatikik
Posts: 1102

Re: ASW - Improvements to ability to maintain melee range

Post#21 » Thu May 28, 2020 4:22 pm

Tankbeardz wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 4:14 pm
Manatikik wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 3:54 pm
Tankbeardz wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 3:34 pm


I'm saying that it was META before and after the initiative debuff stacking nerf. It didn't die...it just got moved to the side. It may not be the best..but still better than most destro comps can account for.

It wasn’t meta before Iniative debuff, but it was for a long time after that’s for sure. And it is certainly not better than most comps destro can account for. RN destro has a plethora of viable comps (which is awesome compared to the Invader meta we were just in); WE is the strongest 6v6 DPS class currently, MDOK and squig are bother amazing, choppa has a good spot RN as assist dps, and Mara is still on the outskirts. And you still haven’t named three 6v6 ASW’s :P
And you haven't actually named any comp that can beat the best order comps regularly. Why are you always 100% order shill?

I play both sides extensively...mind you I stopped caring about 6v6 META **** a long time ago. Anyways...back to un-derailing this post. BUFF ASW.
How am I shilling for order? MSH/MDOK is super strong and only double slayer beat it (once iirc, butter bowl finals). MDoK/WE is super strong in Sov meta, WE/Choppa won this Sunday in the one-off Bitterbowl. Morale Cheese aside I think 6v6 has a pretty diverse meta right now with a lot of viable comps which is fun.
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Feomatar1
Posts: 29

Re: ASW - Improvements to ability to maintain melee range

Post#22 » Thu May 28, 2020 6:33 pm

adamthelc wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 3:50 pm
Give up the pounce and I am fine with them having basic mdps tool kit. 10 sec immunity, charge and short CD melee snare
Yes, AND give riposte, moves, grab, selfheal, 100%crit finisher, melee tree minusheal, aoe and twice hier basic dps, mass detaunt, 30% more basic hp? OK

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adamthelc
Posts: 827

Re: ASW - Improvements to ability to maintain melee range

Post#23 » Thu May 28, 2020 7:00 pm

Feomatar1 wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 6:33 pm
adamthelc wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 3:50 pm
Give up the pounce and I am fine with them having basic mdps tool kit. 10 sec immunity, charge and short CD melee snare
Yes, AND give riposte, moves, grab, selfheal, 100%crit finisher, melee tree minusheal, aoe and twice hier basic dps, mass detaunt, 30% more basic hp? OK
No. Keep pounce and its mobility or have the same gap closer and ability to stick to a target as a slayer.

aSW is a single tree, it doesnt need to be as well rounded as every other mdps. It just needs to have basic tools required to function. A slayers mobility kit allows it to function. Every class doesn't need the mobility and movement control of a WL to function as mDPS.

mSH and mSW should have never gotten a pounce in the first place. Now they have them, they don't deserve even more without giving anything up. SH should probably have some of its tools taken away actually.

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Grock
Posts: 580

Re: ASW - Improvements to ability to maintain melee range

Post#24 » Thu May 28, 2020 7:35 pm

Did that guy ask for Riposte :lol:
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Feomatar1
Posts: 29

Re: ASW - Improvements to ability to maintain melee range

Post#25 » Thu May 28, 2020 7:44 pm

adamthelc wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 7:00 pm
Feomatar1 wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 6:33 pm
adamthelc wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 3:50 pm
Give up the pounce and I am fine with them having basic mdps tool kit. 10 sec immunity, charge and short CD melee snare
Yes, AND give riposte, moves, grab, selfheal, 100%crit finisher, melee tree minusheal, aoe and twice hier basic dps, mass detaunt, 30% more basic hp? OK
No. Keep pounce and its mobility or have the same gap closer and ability to stick to a target as a slayer.

aSW is a single tree, it doesnt need to be as well rounded as every other mdps. It just needs to have basic tools required to function. A slayers mobility kit allows it to function. Every class doesn't need the mobility and movement control of a WL to function as mDPS.

mSH and mSW should have never gotten a pounce in the first place. Now they have them, they don't deserve even more without giving anything up. SH should probably have some of its tools taken away actually.
You try to say that some classes must be viable and some not at all? Are you that level of incane or what? sw is LEAST played class int he game, ok? ASW is WORST mdps and BEST spec of this class, ok? But yes, asw DOESNT need freedom (snare\root imune) and DOESNT needs melee slow cause he have ranged one with stance dance - its ok, but asw definitely NEEDS quality of life buffs as a worst mdps spec of worst class in the game, ok? What asw needs? - its easy, asw needs 5s ms boost after shadowstep what turn off if he use another ability\pot\morale, asw and sh needs riposte tactic as all melee dps have. I can say much more, but my changes will be 2 hard to make for devs, but that is 100% needed to make asw barely viable anywhere.
And what you saying - its braindead **** what can be compared only for 1 member of balancing team of vanilla wow in 2003, who in purpose make hybrid classes pure **** cause he thinks that some classes just needs to be bad (he was fired in 2006 btw).

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adamthelc
Posts: 827

Re: ASW - Improvements to ability to maintain melee range

Post#26 » Thu May 28, 2020 11:27 pm

Feomatar1 wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 7:44 pm
adamthelc wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 7:00 pm
Feomatar1 wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 6:33 pm


Yes, AND give riposte, moves, grab, selfheal, 100%crit finisher, melee tree minusheal, aoe and twice hier basic dps, mass detaunt, 30% more basic hp? OK
No. Keep pounce and its mobility or have the same gap closer and ability to stick to a target as a slayer.

aSW is a single tree, it doesnt need to be as well rounded as every other mdps. It just needs to have basic tools required to function. A slayers mobility kit allows it to function. Every class doesn't need the mobility and movement control of a WL to function as mDPS.

mSH and mSW should have never gotten a pounce in the first place. Now they have them, they don't deserve even more without giving anything up. SH should probably have some of its tools taken away actually.
You try to say that some classes must be viable and some not at all? Are you that level of incane or what? sw is LEAST played class int he game, ok? ASW is WORST mdps and BEST spec of this class, ok? But yes, asw DOESNT need freedom (snare\root imune) and DOESNT needs melee slow cause he have ranged one with stance dance - its ok, but asw definitely NEEDS quality of life buffs as a worst mdps spec of worst class in the game, ok? What asw needs? - its easy, asw needs 5s ms boost after shadowstep what turn off if he use another ability\pot\morale, asw and sh needs riposte tactic as all melee dps have. I can say much more, but my changes will be 2 hard to make for devs, but that is 100% needed to make asw barely viable anywhere.
And what you saying - its braindead **** what can be compared only for 1 member of balancing team of vanilla wow in 2003, who in purpose make hybrid classes pure **** cause he thinks that some classes just needs to be bad (he was fired in 2006 btw).
I dont think thats what I said. I dont really care about the balance issues of asw past the mobility aspect. I also don't give a **** if shadow warriors are viable or not. I dont like pounce outside of a WL or a SM M2.

The rest of it you can debate with someone cares about SWs. Buff them or leave them, it doesnt really matter to me.

Nebuchadnezzar
Posts: 22

Re: ASW - Improvements to ability to maintain melee range

Post#27 » Fri May 29, 2020 12:10 am

First, let me say I was not expecting this post to get this much traffic, nor was I trying to start a flame war. I did not expect that ASW's performance in 6v6 or in general would be such a contentious topic. Let's try our best to keep the discussion on the point on hand, rather than being at each other's throats :D

Also, let me state that these ideas aren't novel or anything. Many other players have voiced similar suggestions, so I'm not alone in thinking this. My main intent in this thread was to collate these ideas in a coherent format and lay out the rationale of why these improvements make sense

Arbich wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 4:40 am
The increased speed after pounce is one of the worst changes on this server (makes no sense to give this tool a class with already quite high mobility)
...
The statement that your proposal doesnt change the damage output of ASW is wrong. You propose changes to the offensive capabilities of the ASW and not to his escape tools (and even then your claim would be doubtful).
While I hate being on the receiving end of Pounce too, I totally disagree and think that the increased speed is necessary for the ability to function given the particulars of this game. The game is notorious for having position desync issues to begin with, and when you add in the travel time and lag present in RvR situations adding a short movement speed buff is the only reasonable way to allow it to function as a gap closer by letting the player correct the game's technical shortcomings. The buff is dispelled after a single attack, and simply allows the ability to function as it's intended, which is to allow the player to hit their target once

I'm really confused by your last point...these changes don't affect the damage or offensive capability at all. They simply allow the class to use its skills in a more functional and consistent manner. Similar functionality was implemented on other classes likely for these exact same reasons

Manatikik wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 4:54 am
Definitely don't need a melee snare; swap to skirmish when moving into a target or as it starts to get away from you.

Snare break component on Swift Strikes could be interesting; but a new ability seems like overkill. The only argument for a snare breaker on ASW is the fact WP/DoK get one; but thats a pretty weak argument.

Shadowstep does NOT need the boost component. If anything to increase the mobility would be to reduce the CD to 10s to match Pounce/Squig Leap but then you'd have to address the Defensive proc portion of it. The tradeoff to have less mobility is you still can stay on targets/debuff your targets as compensation.

The only realistic changes ASW needs is Grim Slash to 25 ap (why is your spam-base attack 35 ap is beyond me) and possibly address Sinister Assault to actually ignore all armor and not just the first 75% (haven't tested this in a few months could be fixed by now).
As mentioned, swapping to use Takedown locks you out of doing damage/having armor for 5 seconds and prevents any meaningful damage rotation after first contact. Technically, mSHs are equally capable of sticking to their target by doing the same thing, but I don't think I've ever heard of anybody doing that :lol:

I will concede that the added snare break is a bit questionable. I mainly added it as a discussion point as that's been the second most common suggestion I've seen from frustrated players(after improving Shadowstep of course). My development direction would likely be the first two changes to see how they pan out before considering the snare break.

I agree that a Swift Strikes snare break could be interesting, but a reliable slow is just so much more straight forward. Swapping to a nearby target to use the channel to get to where you really need to go is just weird and makes no logical sense.

See above reply - the movement speed buff is a necessary evil to make the ability functional given the technical particulars of the game, and the situation is made worse by the slow travel speed on Shadowstep. A lower cooldown does nothing if the skill can't get you to where you need to be in the first place 70% of the time.

Bug fixes are always good, but I disagree on the AP reduction to Grim Slash. Quickly looking at the career builder many other MDPS have spammables in the 35-40 range, with a few at 30. Decreasing to 30 could be justified, but 25 is too much as AP is intended to be a limiter on damage output that applies to all classes(save those with AP restores)

Grock wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 9:06 am
You have gapcloser and selfpunt and ranged CC

Aren't you supposed to have some weaknesses?

Its already better mdps than some actual mdps.
It should've never been what it is, it should've been a hybrid, not a full on mdps
As mentioned above, the gap closer is often nonfunctional in its current form and the proposed change simply makes it function as intended. The ranged knockdown is a 13 point ability in Skirmish and cannot be taken with Shadowstep or any reasonable Assault build(I agree that would be obnoxious)

adamthelc wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 7:00 pm
Feomatar1 wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 6:33 pm
adamthelc wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 3:50 pm
Give up the pounce and I am fine with them having basic mdps tool kit. 10 sec immunity, charge and short CD melee snare
Stuff
No. Keep pounce and its mobility or have the same gap closer and ability to stick to a target as a slayer.

aSW is a single tree, it doesnt need to be as well rounded as every other mdps. It just needs to have basic tools required to function. A slayers mobility kit allows it to function. Every class doesn't need the mobility and movement control of a WL to function as mDPS.

mSH and mSW should have never gotten a pounce in the first place. Now they have them, they don't deserve even more without giving anything up. SH should probably have some of its tools taken away actually.
What you've stated is actually pretty in line with what I've already proposed above in this post. A rectified Shadowstep allows it to function as a primary gap closer, which fills the same role as Charge on a Slayer but requires a 15 point mastery investment. This and a reliable slow would give an ASW the basic tools to stick to their target and perform their function, which in their current state they struggle to.

As I mentioned above, the snare break is the more questionable of these items. Changing this many things at once is definitely hard to theorycraft and I think more incremental play testing could be a better approach. My recommendation would be to go with the first two proposals and after playtesting evaluate if the third is warranted

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Grock
Posts: 580

Re: ASW - Improvements to ability to maintain melee range

Post#28 » Fri May 29, 2020 12:45 am

Nebuchadnezzar wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:10 am
First, let me say I was not expecting this post to get this much traffic, nor was I trying to start a flame war.
This is how forums are nowadays. Every few days we get new "balance" topic and it goes like this for 12+ pages every time

Nebuchadnezzar wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:10 am
As mentioned above, the gap closer is often nonfunctional in its current form and the proposed change simply makes it function as intended. The ranged knockdown is a 13 point ability in Skirmish and cannot be taken with Shadowstep or any reasonable Assault build(I agree that would be obnoxious)
Its bad against moving targets, but its still working(?) against stationary targets and having just that is already better than what most mdps have.

Mobility is extremely limited in WAR, its very sad to see some classes getting these gap closers, while all you have is a movespeed boost on a longer cd and no ranged abilities whatsoever, meaning as soo as the target is 6ft away you are useless. Every engage you do is telegraphed by 10 seconds of walking towards the target :|

Clunkiness of currently existing gapclosers keeps them somewhat in check compared to mobility of the rest of the game's classes.

The moment you make them follow the target like its a modern game is the moment when all mdps will need one because all rdps will need a self-punt escape to achieve what you get currently just by staying on the move.

Of course that'll make the game more dynamic and enjoyable for dps classes (which hare arguably below tanks and healers in terms of skillcap right now) but it will also change the game's iconic low mobility feel of the game that emphasizes group positioning and makes mass pvp feel different from newer games.

I don't know though, maybe it would be a good change - after all we would still have long CDs and bodyblocking...
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Feomatar1
Posts: 29

Re: ASW - Improvements to ability to maintain melee range

Post#29 » Fri May 29, 2020 3:21 am

adamthelc wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 11:27 pm
Feomatar1 wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 7:44 pm
adamthelc wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 7:00 pm


No. Keep pounce and its mobility or have the same gap closer and ability to stick to a target as a slayer.

aSW is a single tree, it doesnt need to be as well rounded as every other mdps. It just needs to have basic tools required to function. A slayers mobility kit allows it to function. Every class doesn't need the mobility and movement control of a WL to function as mDPS.

mSH and mSW should have never gotten a pounce in the first place. Now they have them, they don't deserve even more without giving anything up. SH should probably have some of its tools taken away actually.
You try to say that some classes must be viable and some not at all? Are you that level of incane or what? sw is LEAST played class int he game, ok? ASW is WORST mdps and BEST spec of this class, ok? But yes, asw DOESNT need freedom (snare\root imune) and DOESNT needs melee slow cause he have ranged one with stance dance - its ok, but asw definitely NEEDS quality of life buffs as a worst mdps spec of worst class in the game, ok? What asw needs? - its easy, asw needs 5s ms boost after shadowstep what turn off if he use another ability\pot\morale, asw and sh needs riposte tactic as all melee dps have. I can say much more, but my changes will be 2 hard to make for devs, but that is 100% needed to make asw barely viable anywhere.
And what you saying - its braindead **** what can be compared only for 1 member of balancing team of vanilla wow in 2003, who in purpose make hybrid classes pure **** cause he thinks that some classes just needs to be bad (he was fired in 2006 btw).
I dont think thats what I said. I dont really care about the balance issues of asw past the mobility aspect. I also don't give a **** if shadow warriors are viable or not. I dont like pounce outside of a WL or a SM M2.

The rest of it you can debate with someone cares about SWs. Buff them or leave them, it doesnt really matter to me.
Try to hold spec as worst mdps in the game BY FAR @ I DONT CARE.
You have some kind of mental issue dont you?

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Fey
Posts: 499

Re: ASW - Improvements to ability to maintain melee range

Post#30 » Fri May 29, 2020 5:36 am

If your 65 foot ability instantly brings you 60 feet closer to your target it's still an insane ability. Have any of us ever played a mdps in any other MMO? Probably not, other MMO's are always irrelevant.

If at that point you get kited that means there is a viable counter play. This is good game design, no?
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