Tier 1 Balance Suggestions

[jokerspsycho]

Sure its no biggy. Its just things which would make a lot of classes a lot more fun in t1. For us veterans this doesnt mean much. But for new players it does. Just had my guildy level a wh and he was super bummed when i told him that stealth is for lvl 10+.

I think stealth at 5 would be fine imo. Not the first thing u get, but introduced earlier. It is kinda lame a wh/we from 1-9, more so than any other toons I've leveled.

[adamthelc]

Giving guard earlier would just make more experienced players an advantage earlier over less experienced players.

I dont think WH/WEs or any mdps need a gap closer at level 1. I'm sure they would all like it, but all the lower level rdps without their full kits would appreciate every mdps having a gap closer.

There probably aren't many dots getting cleansed in t1 since its not a t1 ability. But the length of single dot isn't really why AMs and Shamans are so good in t1.

So if you want to give every class its entire T1 tool kit at level 1 that's one thing, but cherry picking which abilities to give is not a good way to achieve balance. I would argue it would actually have the opposite effect. Also it might be nice for older players, but wouldn't be so great for new players who might want to learn their abilities as they get them.

Even then if you really wanted to look at t1 and fix things that don't make sense there are more glaring issues. What about the fact that the first dwarf racial tactic reduces KD/Stun length when destro doesn't even have any. And if you look at RP specifically their first tactic is that racial, the second is divine fury which is bad if you are trying to heal and their third tactic effects their cleanse which they don't even get in t1. So a healing RP has effectively 0 tactics to choose from throughout t1.

I dont think t1 needs major changes especially ones that favor more experienced players. Who should t1 really be designed for?

[Starx]

I like the concept of allowing some form of balance in T1, yet the truth remains; T1 is but an incredibly small portion of the game, and after a few hours - you're most likely out of it. Taking into consideration the Weekend Warfronts.

One point I did see here that I thought worthy of making, was the Guard change. Balance isn't a 'one skill change' game. Changing one ability, has effects on a plethora of abilities. And Guard, has probably one of the largest impacts when changed.

The difference here isn't the skill being changed, it's when the skill becomes accessible, and the answer to such change.

For example - let's say Tanks get Guard at level 1. Immediately, all skills between 1-9 are now immediately 50% weaker. What would happen there?

Balance isn't an easy tweak, it involves looking into multiple levels and reactionary changes based off of simple changes made. I applaud the attempt at looking to change balance in T1, but I think additional measures need to be reviewed if this was ever to become the case. Guard level 1 instantly makes everyone 50% tankier moving up from 1-9, without a change in base abilities for other classes.

How long would it be until Tanks need to be nerfed in T1 because nothing is dying for example?

All skills between 1-9 are already 50% weaker if a level 10+ tank is present in t1, it's pretty arbitrary tbh it would be like RR80+ tanks getting a better version or guard or something. People always complain about ppl not learning there classes and the first what maybe 6 or so hours every new tank player is learning how to be bad at the game because they dont have the most important ability. Also creates an environment where no one wants to group with any tank under level 10 as well.

Same thing with stealth, though I could care less if it was changed bc no one should be playing these classes atm esp not new players lol. I want them to have a bad time pre level 10 so they reroll lol.

[roadkillrobin]

Guard level 1 instantly makes everyone 50% tankier moving up from 1-9, without a change in base abilities for other classes.

How long would it be until Tanks need to be nerfed in T1 because nothing is dying for example?

Guard doesn't reduce the outgoing damage but rather splitting it up. Without any group heals in T1 that doesn't really change the functionality other then dps numbers scenario chart. For outcome efficiency it doesn't change anything. It's impossible to stack enough Parry+Block in t1 to make it detrimental.

So how do I know this?

Cos there's already well equipped tanks in the level ranges of 10-16 in t1, that already have the skill Guard and it doesn't break the game.

Conclusion: I'd be willing to bet that seeing guard as a starting skill would inform new players much better about the tanks role in the game.

I remember starting this game back in 2008, after playing a few other MMO's and had no freaking idea how I would live up to the role of a tank and get players to attack me. When I realized opposing players would just ignore me as a resilience built tank, in favor of attacking squishes, I assumed that tanks got player aggro by being a sustained dps threat. Then I got accustom to that dps role and didn't really realize what I should've be doing. I just assumed that Guard was for aggro management in PVE or something. So once someone starts building tank for being a more resilience based mdps, the last thing that seems logical is taking more damage by using a skill like Guard.

Just the concept of have Guard set, by defualt, on dps and not the healers, as well as following the dps around and assist them, is hard for most new players to grasp. Why make it more complicated by giving the tanks the Guard skill at level 10, at a point when it looks like it doesn't really do much cos you spent most time figuring out how to deal as much damage as possible to the enemy?

The Guard mechanic is a fairly unique concept compared to other games. It's not as self explanatory as charge, group heals , stealth etz.

[saupreusse]

The thing why shamans and am are so strong in t1 surely has to do with their dots. I played one for 3 years on a mythic test account and abused it to its fullest. Players getting stealth at level 5 so they can learn their class slowly isnt really a point at all. How do you learn a class slowly if the whole mechanic of tje class has not been introduced yet? If they are completely new to the game they will be overwhelmed anyway no matter if there is one more skill on their hot bar or not. Its also not cherry picking. These things were discussed in the internal team chat 3 years ago but couldnt get done mostly because of the very limited possibilities back then. Guard reducing dmg before lvl 10 too much is a made up argument
There already are tanks in t1 and they didnt break the game.

[Telen]

The thing why shamans and am are so strong in t1 surely has to do with their dots. I played one for 3 years on a mythic test account and abused it to its fullest. Players getting stealth at level 5 so they can learn their class slowly isnt really a point at all. How do you learn a class slowly if the whole mechanic of tje class has not been introduced yet? If they are completely new to the game they will be overwhelmed anyway no matter if there is one more skill on their hot bar or not. Its also not cherry picking. These things were discussed in the internal team chat 3 years ago but couldnt get done mostly because of the very limited possibilities back then. Guard reducing dmg before lvl 10 too much is a made up argument
There already are tanks in t1 and they didnt break the game.

AM/Shaman are strong in t1 because of their hybrid nature. Its not the dots. Without specializing through 4 tactics, mastery and stat stacking they can heal and dps efficiently, its something only shield dok/wp can do in t4. WIth so many soloing or not really knowing their classes the ability to have decent dps and decent healing with you at all times is very strong.

[roadkillrobin]

. Guard reducing dmg before lvl 10 too much is a made up argument
There already are tanks in t1 and they didnt break the game.

With over-bolstering it might become a small issue with the absurd stat increases, like the first 3 levels. Hard to say without testing, but since you have passed level 3, usually after winning your first scenario, I don't really think it's something to be concerned about from a balance perspective. Those three levels are such a small fraction of the game. The educational experience of getting Guard at rank 1 skill is in my opinion more valuable for the game, long term.

[saupreusse]

The thing why shamans and am are so strong in t1 surely has to do with their dots. I played one for 3 years on a mythic test account and abused it to its fullest. Players getting stealth at level 5 so they can learn their class slowly isnt really a point at all. How do you learn a class slowly if the whole mechanic of tje class has not been introduced yet? If they are completely new to the game they will be overwhelmed anyway no matter if there is one more skill on their hot bar or not. Its also not cherry picking. These things were discussed in the internal team chat 3 years ago but couldnt get done mostly because of the very limited possibilities back then. Guard reducing dmg before lvl 10 too much is a made up argument
There already are tanks in t1 and they didnt break the game.

AM/Shaman are strong in t1 because of their hybrid nature. Its not the dots. Without specializing through 4 tactics, mastery and stat stacking they can heal and dps efficiently, its something only shield dok/wp can do in t4. WIth so many soloing or not really knowing their classes the ability to have decent dps and decent healing with you at all times is very strong.

Well yes ofc. But the lifetap/hybrid nature isnt the cheesy thing about the class. The cheese is finishing off solo tier 1 players by only casting 2 dots on em. At least thats my opinion, i dont expect anyone to share it.

[Telen]

Well yes ofc. But the lifetap/hybrid nature isnt the cheesy thing about the class. The cheese is finishing off solo tier 1 players by only casting 2 dots on em. At least thats my opinion, i dont expect anyone to share it.

Im as sympathetic to solo issues as anyone I spend the majority of the time the few guys I knew from live arent on solo. Like I always get told when I bring up solo/pug issues. Its a group game. Those same dots that might seem a benefit in t1 against soloers will be the failure of the class outsdie it.
Maybe the experience will make a new player join a group. This game is brutal now for anyone not in a pre or zerging so its doing them a favour.

[saupreusse]

Well yes ofc. But the lifetap/hybrid nature isnt the cheesy thing about the class. The cheese is finishing off solo tier 1 players by only casting 2 dots on em. At least thats my opinion, i dont expect anyone to share it.

Im as sympathetic to solo issues as anyone I spend the majority of the time the few guys I knew from live arent on solo. Like I always get told when I bring up solo/pug issues. Its a group game. Those same dots that might seem a benefit in t1 against soloers will be the failure of the class outsdie it.

Sure it is a grp game. And im never running without my premade in tier 4. But tier 1 is a different story. Like 99% of t1 players are pugging and/or have just started their first char. Its a bit much to ask of them to form perfect premades when its already hard for them to even navigate to the nearest flight master and dont even know what rvr is. Is my suggestion catering towards solo pugs? Absolutely. And I believe this is alright for tier 1 purposes.