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Mara Proposal

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saupreusse
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Posts: 2386

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#91 » Thu May 14, 2020 8:37 am

Rumpel wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 12:11 pm
saupreusse wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 10:35 pm Well how i see it mara has the all the debuffs and toola one could want. Its just fair that you need a tactic slot to healdebuff more. You can simply add a squig or witch elf or dok for healdebuffs. You refer a few times that sw has a hdb but yeah squig has exactly the same. I dont think mara needs easier access to the hdb. Yout got the strongest armor debuff, a wounds debuff, and a toughness deinbuff iirc. Also you are a LOT tankier than any other dps class and you have one of the most useful self heal out of all dps classes.
These are allways THE arguments BUT without mentioning a mara don't get this all together...it belongs to the stance so you are tanky OR you get superb debuffs. Mara isn't that what it is described here.
Yes it does you just have to press one button when **** goes down. And switch back when enemy pressure is gone. You can easily spec everything i mentioned above so dont lie about it. Plus your hdb tactic even increases your tankyness and is buffing your hdb way over that of other dps. And to the guy who said you can simply bring a bg because he can do everything mara can do: thats just not true. Maras wounds and armor debuff is a lot stronger than bgs.
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Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#92 » Thu May 14, 2020 12:23 pm

saupreusse wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 8:37 am And to the guy who said you can simply bring a bg because he can do everything mara can do: thats just not true. Maras wounds and armor debuff is a lot stronger than bgs.
That would be nice if it were true and the Mara wounds/armor debuffs weren't nerfed in the past and had their tooltips adjust to reflect the real values that the debuff. You can't just look at the tooltips. The Mara wounds debuff for instance, is a 100 wounds debuff, not a 160. The Mara debuffs are actually '"slighly" stronger than a BGs, not "a lot". It's actually fairly disappointing, as one of the selling points of the Savagery Mara has always been (to your point) "it's great debuffs", but that's just not true on this server. Realistically, you have a standard armor debuff (exactly the same as WLs, slightly stronger than BGs), a standard single target wounds debuff (it's just 100 not 160), a standard low damage toughness debuff (basically almost never worth the GCD except in some niche cases, not affected by piercing bite, is defendable, so it's pretty bad versus tanks, and tough debuffs are generally not worth the GCD on low tough targets, so it's primary use is to occasionally use in a debuff cycle on defensive WPs, and that's about it), a 25% heal debuff that requires a tactic to be useful, and the ap regen debuff. It's honestly nothing spectacular in comparison to what it once was (1600 armor debuff, 160 wounds debuff, 75% heal debuff) , and it's barely a better package than other classes who don't have "dedicated debuff specs" can do.

(I will give you that the Mara is the tankiest of DPS classes, that's certainly true with the monstro proc, but it does also mean you are the most restricted MDPS class while you are tanky, and yes, you can stance dance, but procs drop on stance switches so there is no way to be tanky and be able to debuff and/or deal significant ST damage, outside of slapping wounds/armor/heal debuffs on, swapping to monstro and flail spamming for 5 seconds, and then repeating, but again you are only "tanky" for 50% of the time, and you still do ass single target damage).

That being said, I wasn't the person who brought up the BG argument, but I was the person responding to that logic. I'm not trying to make some kind of grand "bg is better than mara" argument, as I don't believe that, but the argument you are making doesn't hold much water in the current balance cycle, since its just not true. The point of responding to the other post who brought up that "The Mara wounds debuff isn't good because the BG can also do it", but also said "the changes I proposed are bad because you need to give up something to get the tactic slot", the response I was making was to say that if one is to use the logic that the wounds debuff is redundant with a bg (in a 6v6 environment), but then says "you need the armor debuff" (which following the same logic, is redundant with the BG), is illogical. So I was attempting to point out the logical conclusion of that argument, not necessarily to say "the armor and wounds debuffs are bad/useless because a BG can do them".

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wachlarz
Posts: 798

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#93 » Thu May 14, 2020 2:20 pm

saupreusse wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 8:37 am
Rumpel wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 12:11 pm
saupreusse wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 10:35 pm Well how i see it mara has the all the debuffs and toola one could want. Its just fair that you need a tactic slot to healdebuff more. You can simply add a squig or witch elf or dok for healdebuffs. You refer a few times that sw has a hdb but yeah squig has exactly the same. I dont think mara needs easier access to the hdb. Yout got the strongest armor debuff, a wounds debuff, and a toughness deinbuff iirc. Also you are a LOT tankier than any other dps class and you have one of the most useful self heal out of all dps classes.
These are allways THE arguments BUT without mentioning a mara don't get this all together...it belongs to the stance so you are tanky OR you get superb debuffs. Mara isn't that what it is described here.
Yes it does you just have to press one button when **** goes down. And switch back when enemy pressure is gone. You can easily spec everything i mentioned above so dont lie about it. Plus your hdb tactic even increases your tankyness and is buffing your hdb way over that of other dps. And to the guy who said you can simply bring a bg because he can do everything mara can do: thats just not true. Maras wounds and armor debuff is a lot stronger than bgs.
Bg armor debuff at 100% hate 1216, wouds 114. Mara armor 1512 wouds 95. And Bg wouds can be aoe, Mara single target...

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Rumpel
Posts: 359

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#94 » Thu May 14, 2020 2:53 pm

saupreusse wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 8:37 am
Rumpel wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 12:11 pm
saupreusse wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 10:35 pm Well how i see it mara has the all the debuffs and toola one could want. Its just fair that you need a tactic slot to healdebuff more. You can simply add a squig or witch elf or dok for healdebuffs. You refer a few times that sw has a hdb but yeah squig has exactly the same. I dont think mara needs easier access to the hdb. Yout got the strongest armor debuff, a wounds debuff, and a toughness deinbuff iirc. Also you are a LOT tankier than any other dps class and you have one of the most useful self heal out of all dps classes.
These are allways THE arguments BUT without mentioning a mara don't get this all together...it belongs to the stance so you are tanky OR you get superb debuffs. Mara isn't that what it is described here.
Yes it does you just have to press one button when **** goes down. And switch back when enemy pressure is gone. You can easily spec everything i mentioned above so dont lie about it. Plus your hdb tactic even increases your tankyness and is buffing your hdb way over that of other dps. And to the guy who said you can simply bring a bg because he can do everything mara can do: thats just not true. Maras wounds and armor debuff is a lot stronger than bgs.
My experience is, brute is only viable with tough/ini tactic so you have to train brute and there are no points left for savagery. So it's not just one button.
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normanis
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Re: Mara Proposal

Post#95 » Thu May 14, 2020 3:25 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 7:13 pm
normanis wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 2:59 pm so u whnat thunderous blow in mosntro stance/brut stance aswell? maby replace also crit damage in sav tree to heald debuff tactic so mosntro mara has crit damage and wounds debuff ( its dont require arms) and brut tree will be skipped by anyone. :twisted:
Yes I do want this. As you probably don't know, this is how Thunderous Blows was on live Warhammer Online for the entirety of it's duration, and was a changed by the devs on ROR made in 2016 when the level cap was in Tier 2. It was change that made sense when everyone was running around with 4k wounds, and not a change that makes any sense with people fighting in Sov gear.
well than i am 100% sure someone will make proposals make brute tree great again .
p.s why should i even stance dance if i have all coockies in 1 stance?
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wachlarz
Posts: 798

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#96 » Thu May 14, 2020 3:29 pm

normanis wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 3:25 pm
Foofmonger wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 7:13 pm
normanis wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 2:59 pm so u whnat thunderous blow in mosntro stance/brut stance aswell? maby replace also crit damage in sav tree to heald debuff tactic so mosntro mara has crit damage and wounds debuff ( its dont require arms) and brut tree will be skipped by anyone. :twisted:
Yes I do want this. As you probably don't know, this is how Thunderous Blows was on live Warhammer Online for the entirety of it's duration, and was a changed by the devs on ROR made in 2016 when the level cap was in Tier 2. It was change that made sense when everyone was running around with 4k wounds, and not a change that makes any sense with people fighting in Sov gear.
well than i am 100% sure someone will make proposals make brute tree great again .
p.s why should i even stance dance if i have all coockies in 1 stance?
Check Wl

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normanis
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Re: Mara Proposal

Post#97 » Thu May 14, 2020 3:33 pm

wachlarz wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 3:29 pm
normanis wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 3:25 pm
Foofmonger wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 7:13 pm

Yes I do want this. As you probably don't know, this is how Thunderous Blows was on live Warhammer Online for the entirety of it's duration, and was a changed by the devs on ROR made in 2016 when the level cap was in Tier 2. It was change that made sense when everyone was running around with 4k wounds, and not a change that makes any sense with people fighting in Sov gear.
well than i am 100% sure someone will make proposals make brute tree great again .
p.s why should i even stance dance if i have all coockies in 1 stance?
Check Wl
well than make sw also that he have all coockies in 1 stance so we can complitly skip scout tree ( mara and sw same mechaniks)
"Iron Within, Iron Without!"

Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#98 » Thu May 14, 2020 3:35 pm

normanis wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 3:25 pm
Foofmonger wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 7:13 pm
normanis wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 2:59 pm so u whnat thunderous blow in mosntro stance/brut stance aswell? maby replace also crit damage in sav tree to heald debuff tactic so mosntro mara has crit damage and wounds debuff ( its dont require arms) and brut tree will be skipped by anyone. :twisted:
Yes I do want this. As you probably don't know, this is how Thunderous Blows was on live Warhammer Online for the entirety of it's duration, and was a changed by the devs on ROR made in 2016 when the level cap was in Tier 2. It was change that made sense when everyone was running around with 4k wounds, and not a change that makes any sense with people fighting in Sov gear.
well than i am 100% sure someone will make proposals make brute tree great again .
p.s why should i even stance dance if i have all coockies in 1 stance?
Thunderous Blow already doesn't require a stance. What are you talking about man? Moving TB placement in the mastery path doesn't change anything about how a Mara stance dances, it just allows Mara builds to dip into 5 for Savagery and get something out of it, instead of the current reality in which you go 11+ points in Savagery or you go 0. It opens up "build diversity", and that's about it, it has 0 impact on "stance dancing".

So for context here, how about you go look at the SW mastery paths, and tell me how many 9 and 13 point abilities in the SW trees are "stanceless"? Cause I can tell you the answer is 0. All of the mastery abilities that do not require a stance, happen to be 5 point abilities! Just like TB used to be, and just like the change I proposed....

So again, what are you trying to say?

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normanis
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Re: Mara Proposal

Post#99 » Thu May 14, 2020 3:47 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 3:35 pm
normanis wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 3:25 pm
Foofmonger wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 7:13 pm

Yes I do want this. As you probably don't know, this is how Thunderous Blows was on live Warhammer Online for the entirety of it's duration, and was a changed by the devs on ROR made in 2016 when the level cap was in Tier 2. It was change that made sense when everyone was running around with 4k wounds, and not a change that makes any sense with people fighting in Sov gear.
well than i am 100% sure someone will make proposals make brute tree great again .
p.s why should i even stance dance if i have all coockies in 1 stance?
Thunderous Blow already doesn't require a stance. What are you talking about man? Moving TB placement in the mastery path doesn't change anything about how a Mara stance dances, it just allows Mara builds to dip into 5 for Savagery and get something out of it, instead of the current reality in which you go 11+ points in Savagery or you go 0. It opens up "build diversity", and that's about it, it has 0 impact on "stance dancing".

So for context here, how about you go look at the SW mastery paths, and tell me how many 9 and 13 point abilities in the SW trees are "stanceless"? Cause I can tell you the answer is 0. All of the mastery abilities that do not require a stance, happen to be 5 point abilities! Just like TB used to be, and just like the change I proposed....

So again, what are you trying to say?
so i am playing monstro tree all time , and i skiped crit damage for wounds debuff. what is 5 points. so drink tons potions (triple i have seen) and just solo roam around rvr lakes in mosntro stance and kill ppl faster than before . 100 wounds is very strong for so low abilitie = wp has 9 points and its only 60 wounds buff. i dont mention free wounds debuff from choosen what is 79 ( on my chosen and u run ressit auras anyway) so why give 1 more free wounds debuff? for realm who already have tons of tham.
thunderous blow should require savagery hand if its 5 points if its 11 points than it should be free no hand requirement
slayer has 9p wounds debuff and need 2h ,
p.s destro already have 3 pulls vs order 2 pulls , if mara get his wound sback it mean again 3 wounds debuff vs 2 ( order need 2h use vs free destro)

here is about sw. see stance dance or stay in 1 stance dont have all good coockies in 1 build. like it was before when eye shot was core. if thunderous blow go 5 points i whant eye shot core :D
fell the weak = scout
festering arrow =scout
croscut =assault
exploit weaknese =assault
eye shot =skirm
shadow sting = should be 5 points byt because poor squig have it 9 so sw also has it 9
barrage = skirm
there is some abilities what dont require stance dance byt mostly noone took tham because there is better abilities where u need put points
Last edited by normanis on Thu May 14, 2020 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Iron Within, Iron Without!"

Rapzel
Posts: 390

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#100 » Thu May 14, 2020 3:51 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 3:35 pm
normanis wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 3:25 pm
Foofmonger wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 7:13 pm

Yes I do want this. As you probably don't know, this is how Thunderous Blows was on live Warhammer Online for the entirety of it's duration, and was a changed by the devs on ROR made in 2016 when the level cap was in Tier 2. It was change that made sense when everyone was running around with 4k wounds, and not a change that makes any sense with people fighting in Sov gear.
well than i am 100% sure someone will make proposals make brute tree great again .
p.s why should i even stance dance if i have all coockies in 1 stance?
Thunderous Blow already doesn't require a stance. What are you talking about man? Moving TB placement in the mastery path doesn't change anything about how a Mara stance dances, it just allows Mara builds to dip into 5 for Savagery and get something out of it, instead of the current reality in which you go 11+ points in Savagery or you go 0. It opens up "build diversity", and that's about it, it has 0 impact on "stance dancing".

So for context here, how about you go look at the SW mastery paths, and tell me how many 9 and 13 point abilities in the SW trees are "stanceless"? Cause I can tell you the answer is 0. All of the mastery abilities that do not require a stance, happen to be 5 point abilities! Just like TB used to be, and just like the change I proposed....

So again, what are you trying to say?
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