Mara Proposal

[Foofmonger]

So the Mara heal debuff sucks, I think that's been covered in this thread to death, it has a lot of issues and I'd personally love to see it changed. However, as many people have pointed out, you'd also have to balance it to accommodate for the change, and there shouldn't be just a "straight Mara buff". Here's what I would do personally if I were the devs:

1. Remove Tainted Claw as a baseline ability. Put Draining Swipes at baseline. Draining Swipes as a core ability is hardly "strong", and this is basically a nerf.

2. Put Thunderous Blows back as the 5 point Savagery ability like it should be and always was. This is a small buff, but it's to fix a nerf from 2015 when this server was in t2 and early wounds debuffs mattered. They don't. You can still keep the nerfed value, so it's still nerfed overall from where it was on live.

3. Put Tainted Claw back in as the 13 point Savagery ability. The Marauder shouldn't have a 5 or 9 point heal debuff IMO, it should be 13 points for balance. Double the cooldown of tainted claw to 10 seconds to make it work like other heal debuffs. Boost it to a 50% heal debuff baseline, to be worth a 13 point ability.

4. Completely remove the current heal debuff/drain life tactic. The drain life is garbage, the fact that the Marauder has to waste a tactic slot is garbage, it's just pure garbage. Throw this entire tactic into the garbage bin.

5. Give Mara's a new random 11pt tactic, really doesn't even matter what it does, as long as it is occasionally situationally useful.

These changes would achieve a variety of things:

1. The Mara heal debuff would be much harder to get, and objectively weaker as an ability (higher cooldown), but frees up the Marauder to not have to waste a tactic slot to do what other DPS can do without one.

2. Draining Swipes, which is savagery only abiity, would be core instead of the 25% tainted claw, which is argueably weaker early on. Later on it still removes a Mara who doesn't spec for 13 savagery to get any heal debuff, which is fair.

3. Thunderous Blows goes back to where it should be and allows for more Marauder spec diversity.

TLDR: Nerf the heal debuff cooldown, remove it as a core ability, put it as a 13 point savagery ability, increase the debuff to 50%, and remove the tactic.

In my opinion, the above changes would be relatively balanced. This is a give and take, and the Marauder needs to give up something to get something here. That being said, the current way in which the Marauder heal debuffs is totally stupid and sucks in comparison to every other class with a heal debuff in the game. It made a lot of sense at live when the Marauder healing debuff tactic boosted Tainted Claw to a 75% heal debuff (which was overpowered), but the change to the tactic to make it 50% with the horrible horrible worthless lifeleech was a terrible decision by Mythic. It was a stupid idea in 2009, and it's still a stupid idea in 2020.

I was hoping you’d chime in!

I do like your proposal, and I agree as it follows the same base-line if my proposal: give Mara an ability healdebuff not a tactic.

I’d prefer not to go 13 points when no one else has to but if thunderous blow is changed to 5 point I can make the trade. I very much agree that draining swipe should be base-line or core and tainted claws cool down increased to 10 seconds.

Thank you for the input

I've honestly though about this topic for about 10 years now, and this is more or less my feelings on the ability. It's a little different now due to the TB changes that the ROR devs have made, but the general idea has always been the same "make it a darn ability". I've thought a lot on how to do it without making it overpowered in consideration of the rest of the toolkit that the Marauder has.

To be 100% fair, the WL outgoing heal debuff is 13 points, so it would actually create more parity between the WL/Marauder giving them both a specced 13 point heal debuff, of course the Mara would be incoming and the WL outgoing, but from an "availability standpoint" I think that's pretty fair. I'd also much rather have the "non mutation locked" ability be the 5 point ability in Marauder trees, so you can actually cross spec and get value (right now, theres basically no reason to spec Sav unless you are going full Sav, and there's no reason to spec 5 or less brut really, honestly Mutated Aggressor should also be the 5 point ability and swap with Guillotene, but that's another discusion).

So while I think the 13 point ability "hurts" I think that's what needed to make it "balanced" and "fair". The Marauder still has a lot going for it, and giving it a 5 or 9 point 50% heal debuff ability I personally think would be a little too strong. I think Marauder's should have to specialize heavily into Sav to get heal debuffs, and that Marauder's as a whole should have an easier time getting the wounds debuff.

You could of course make the case to do this: TB 5 point, heal debuff 9 point, Cutting claw 13 points. I'd personally rather keep the armor debuff at 9 point though.

Overall though, I think this is a great thread for promoting this discussion. This is something that's been on my mind for a while so thank you for your analysis. I really do like your suggestions!

[Nefarian78]

No not at all.

In 6v6, this gives the Mara an extra tactic. You are still gonna go with the 13/9 Sav/Brut spec, the same spec you go with today. So the trade is actually 5 second cooldown, and the life leech, for a tactic slot. Which is not "self-mutilation" it's actually a net positive for Marauders without being stupid overpowered. It also frees up specs options for the Mara as you can now actually dip into Savagery just for TB which frees up a lot of new specs. I also don't see how this is any way "making Brut less viable" either, as there are literally no changes to Brut and all it really does is actually let Brut Mara's get TB without having to go 13 points in Savagery, so it's actually a very small Brutality buff.

Moving healdebuffs at 13pts means Brutality can't access healdebuff even with +2 from Sov unless they drop 2 things in Brut or Savagery. Either lose Thunderous Blow + Armor Debuff or 2 between Mutated Aggressor/Growing Instability/Guillotine. Having no healdebuff at all and in exchange have a wounds debuff (Which is barely better than BG's) is not a "very small buff" to Brutality, it's a nerf. At least with current +2 sov you can get both Heal Debuff and Armor Debuff.

If you can't see how this is a nerf, you're either blind or ignorant.

Trading 5s CD and life leech to free up a tactic slot (Which can only be used to run Deeply Impaled) is neither a good trade nor opens up any new build, let alone a viable one. And no, some Monstro or Brutality meme with TB but no healdebuff isn't a viable build.

Also, your premise that Marauders are "bottom of the barrel" in 6v6 is just ridiculous. Marauders are one of the strongest 6v6 classes in the entire game....

So I disagree with your premise and your assessment.

You can disagree, this doesn't change that mine isn't an opinion but a fact that is shared by pretty much most of the actual 6v6 community (Hint: Not pug rankeds) and i can personally confirm from my experience in playing 6v6 both as Destro or Order and by playing a Marauder myself.

I've explained why Marauders are at the bottom of the dps chain in my previous post. If you honestly think a class such as that can compete with WE/mSH/DpsDok, i strongly suggest you to try playing a real 6v6 with a mara vs teams on the caliber of Montague or Teinhala-Reonor. (Hint: You will get stomped)

[Grock]

How about this
- Give Choppa's 2h tree abilities to Sav Mara: change Tainted Claw to 13pt OHD and Thunderous Blow to 5pt CD increaser
- Move Wounds debuff to Choppa's Tired Already to mirror Slayer's 2h Devastate (and rework No More Helpin into a dispel)
- Move Concussive Jolt to Brutality 13pt and make it single-target 3s KD (why the hell there's non m4 aoe KD anyway?)
- Move Wave of Terror to Monstro
- Buff Convulsive Slashing and make it do extra damage instantly when interrupted (like Git to da Choppa)

Make Bruta an actually strong burst spec, and Sav even more of a sustained debuffer?



Just some wild brainstorming from a few days ago

Mara need stances rework, until that everything is futile

[Foofmonger]

No not at all.

In 6v6, this gives the Mara an extra tactic. You are still gonna go with the 13/9 Sav/Brut spec, the same spec you go with today. So the trade is actually 5 second cooldown, and the life leech, for a tactic slot. Which is not "self-mutilation" it's actually a net positive for Marauders without being stupid overpowered. It also frees up specs options for the Mara as you can now actually dip into Savagery just for TB which frees up a lot of new specs. I also don't see how this is any way "making Brut less viable" either, as there are literally no changes to Brut and all it really does is actually let Brut Mara's get TB without having to go 13 points in Savagery, so it's actually a very small Brutality buff.

Moving healdebuffs at 13pts means Brutality can't access healdebuff even with +2 from Sov unless they drop 2 things in Brut or Savagery. Either lose Thunderous Blow + Armor Debuff or 2 between Mutated Aggressor/Growing Instability/Guillotine. Having no healdebuff at all and in exchange have a wounds debuff (Which is barely better than BG's) is not a "very small buff" to Brutality, it's a nerf. At least with current +2 sov you can get both Heal Debuff and Armor Debuff.

If you can't see how this is a nerf, you're either blind or ignorant.

Trading 5s CD and life leech to free up a tactic slot (Which can only be used to run Deeply Impaled) is neither a good trade nor opens up any new build, let alone a viable one. And no, some Monstro or Brutality meme with TB but no healdebuff isn't a viable build.

Also, your premise that Marauders are "bottom of the barrel" in 6v6 is just ridiculous. Marauders are one of the strongest 6v6 classes in the entire game....

So I disagree with your premise and your assessment.

You can disagree, this doesn't change that mine isn't an opinion but a fact that is shared by pretty much most of the actual 6v6 community (Hint: Not pug rankeds) and i can personally confirm from my experience in playing 6v6 both as Destro or Order and by playing a Marauder myself.

I've explained why Marauders are at the bottom of the dps chain in my previous post. If you honestly think a class such as that can compete with WE/mSH/DpsDok, i strongly suggest you to try playing a real 6v6 with a mara vs teams on the caliber of Montague or Teinhala-Reonor. (Hint: You will get stomped)

I'm not "blind or ignorant", and I really don't appreciate your tone here. We are having a discussion here and just because I disagree with you doesn't give you the permission to act like an asshole. Please cut the toxicity out or we don't need to communicate with each other (where in my post did I insult you?), Back to the discussion:

I still disagree with you. First of all, your analysis of the specs is frankly off. Why are we assuming "you have to take Wave of Terror" for 6v6? That's what "makes you a brutality Marauder"?

Yes, there is a niche 6v6 spec that goes 13/11 split Brut/Sav and grabs Wave of Terror and DI and drops Thunderous Blows, with the goal being grabbing some morale drain/ranged functionality instead of TB. It's basically a brand new spec (because Wave of Terror use to be hot garbage), that's been around for what, 2 months now? It's also argueably worse then the standard 13 Sav/9 Brut baseline spec that grabs TB and not WoT (it's also arguably better, to be fair, I prefer the WoT spec). Sure, you can rely on blast wave and hastened doom if you want in your comp, but this still misses the point of grabbing TB, as it allows the Mara to use it on demand on a full health target to get the full value of the debuff in the burst cycle, something that you cannot reliably do with a "chance" tactic like HD. Sure it's barely better, but it's about how it's used in application and the fact that it's on-demand.

(For clarification, what I mean by burst cycle is when you swap your ma to a full health/unwound debuffed target, the Mara can use TB as the first hit to guarantee the wounds loss actually translates to "burst damage", as it is applied first before damage, allowing your assist train to potentially catch someone and burst them down before the proper damage reduction/healing swaps that will invariably take place, such as guard swaps, challenges, various forms of cc, burst heals on the target, etc..).

Furthermore, you've completely discounted that this change would open up a new tactic slot for the Mara, and they don't have to spend that point on the 11pt Savagery tactic anymore. Even if they did the proposed changes I mentioned, you can still go for a 13/13 spec with sov+2 and grab wave of terror and the heal debuff. You would not give up "two things" you'd actually only give up "one thing" in comparison to the spec as it is now. The spec you are referencing is already not grabbing both Wave of Terror and TB, so saying you "lose" TB is disingenuous: Here's a link for reference: https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... mt=5217&t=

(Imagine TB is a 13 point healdebuff and draining swipes is now TB) As you can see, with Sov +2 you'd have to give up one of the following: Guillotene/Mutated Aggressor/Growing Instability/Cutting Claw, while stil retaining your WoT/Heal Debuff access. Again, you also just netted a tactic slot. If we want to talk about 6v6 logic, if you are already running a BG and "don't need the wounds debuff", why do you need the armor debuff? The BG can do that too. Would you not trade a redundant debuff for an entire tactic slot? How is that a nerf? It of course depends on the tactics you are running in the first place, but gaining 10% crit for your team, 20% crit for yourself, 50% armor ignore, 15% damage, etc.. is probably a net buff versus losing an armor debuff that someone else can already provide.

Also to add: I didn't even get to replacing the 11 point Savagery tactic, which conceivably could be something viable for 6v6 giving the Marauder additional use/viability/spec options. So you have to consider that vacuum as well and the potential for other changes. Removing that tactic means something has to go in it's place.

[Arbich]

Spoiler:

Sorry, I propose no change at all (maybe was misunderstanding). I read your point, but I don´t understand it.
You say mara has no inc-healdebuff like for example WE and this is some kind of unfair(?), but his "mirror" WL has no heal debuff at all?!
I dont agree to the premise that you can look at heal debuffs in isolation, but of you do there is one mdps on order without healdebuff and none on destro.
Why some classes get some buffs/debuffs and some other not, is cause this is a grouped based game. If all buffs/debuffs are equaly distribute (and some may be redundant) is another question, but in sum the mara is not in the short end about what debuffs/buffs he brings to a group.

In my proposal I offer to give white-lion a heal debuff... Why are you acting like I didn't?

"If all buffs/debuffs are equally distributed..." I've already touched on diversity. Heal debuffs should be viewed as tanks having access to KD. Every dps should have access to a HD, just as all tanks have access to a KD. I believe it to be as such, you can argue differently if you want, I've stated why I think that so but have yet to get a, "I disagree because..." (insert counter viewpoint here) I've only gotten, "I disagree because mara already has a HD and white lion doesnt." or "I disagree because mara has every other tool and shouldnt be given every tool..." And I've debunked or explained why both of those arguments are wrong or incorrect.

And lastly mara is on the short end of debuffs he brings to a group because he can easily be replaced by better options. (BG,WE) He is not so unique and I've stated why in my other comments, getting tired of repeating myself. View my previous comments to gather correct information.

Feel free to send me a personal message as well if you're just trying to understand and I'm not explaining it well enough, I'm always happy to educate or explain. Not trying to be pissy or rude.

(idk how to do quotes after I've already set up a reply)
but in response to, "I agree: White Lion is irrelevant, but so are the other classes. Your statement is contradictory. sorry."

White lion can be irrelevant because of how well he preforms currently. But White lion could also be relevant because he doesn't have the tool as well. White lion doesn't necessarily need the tool but that's a different topical-argument that I don't want to get into, and am trying to avoid because its different from my topic and many people have "strong feelings" about it.

WL and Mara are the only mdps classes with armor debuff... should every class get everything or should it be limited to specific buffs/debuffs? Why? Limited to which one?
If abilities that only really perform with a extra tactic are an issue, whats with boiling blood/word of pain?
You are not pissy/rude at all.
To make it clear, I disagree with your basic premise ("something is wrong with mara healdebuff" thats it kind of, right? You well explained what must be changed in your opinion, but imo there is nothing wrong with the healdebuff. The tactic works, the ability works, its not uncommon at all for maras to have a 50% healdebuff. Whats the problem? That its different than other healdebuffs? Warhammer online still dont have perfectly mirrored classes and if you think that some abilities should be changed, cause they are unique, you open a can of worms (the BB, WoP example...).

You can disagree, this doesn't change that mine isn't an opinion but a fact that is shared by pretty much most of the actual 6v6 community (Hint: Not pug rankeds) and i can personally confirm from my experience in playing 6v6 both as Destro or Order and by playing a Marauder myself.

I've explained why Marauders are at the bottom of the dps chain in my previous post. If you honestly think a class such as that can compete with WE/mSH/DpsDok, i strongly suggest you to try playing a real 6v6 with a mara vs teams on the caliber of Montague or Teinhala-Reonor. (Hint: You will get stomped)

teinhala with a engineer and montague with a dps runepriest?
Or do you mean, if you exchange mara for magus or sorc, you fare better?
Thats are facts?!

[Stophy22]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

In my proposal I offer to give white-lion a heal debuff... Why are you acting like I didn't?

"If all buffs/debuffs are equally distributed..." I've already touched on diversity. Heal debuffs should be viewed as tanks having access to KD. Every dps should have access to a HD, just as all tanks have access to a KD. I believe it to be as such, you can argue differently if you want, I've stated why I think that so but have yet to get a, "I disagree because..." (insert counter viewpoint here) I've only gotten, "I disagree because mara already has a HD and white lion doesnt." or "I disagree because mara has every other tool and shouldnt be given every tool..." And I've debunked or explained why both of those arguments are wrong or incorrect.

And lastly mara is on the short end of debuffs he brings to a group because he can easily be replaced by better options. (BG,WE) He is not so unique and I've stated why in my other comments, getting tired of repeating myself. View my previous comments to gather correct information.

Feel free to send me a personal message as well if you're just trying to understand and I'm not explaining it well enough, I'm always happy to educate or explain. Not trying to be pissy or rude.

(idk how to do quotes after I've already set up a reply)
but in response to, "I agree: White Lion is irrelevant, but so are the other classes. Your statement is contradictory. sorry."

White lion can be irrelevant because of how well he preforms currently. But White lion could also be relevant because he doesn't have the tool as well. White lion doesn't necessarily need the tool but that's a different topical-argument that I don't want to get into, and am trying to avoid because its different from my topic and many people have "strong feelings" about it.

WL and Mara are the only mdps classes with armor debuff... should every class get everything or should it be limited to specific buffs/debuffs? Why? Limited to which one?
If abilities that only really perform with a extra tactic are an issue, whats with boiling blood/word of pain?
You are not pissy/rude at all.
To make it clear, I disagree with your basic premise ("something is wrong with mara healdebuff" thats it kind of, right? You well explained what must be changed in your opinion, but imo there is nothing wrong with the healdebuff. The tactic works, the ability works, its not uncommon at all for maras to have a 50% healdebuff. Whats the problem? That its different than other healdebuffs? Warhammer online still dont have perfectly mirrored classes and if you think that some abilities should be changed, cause they are unique, you open a can of worms (the BB, WoP example...).

You can disagree, this doesn't change that mine isn't an opinion but a fact that is shared by pretty much most of the actual 6v6 community (Hint: Not pug rankeds) and i can personally confirm from my experience in playing 6v6 both as Destro or Order and by playing a Marauder myself.

I've explained why Marauders are at the bottom of the dps chain in my previous post. If you honestly think a class such as that can compete with WE/mSH/DpsDok, i strongly suggest you to try playing a real 6v6 with a mara vs teams on the caliber of Montague or Teinhala-Reonor. (Hint: You will get stomped)

teinhala with a engineer and montague with a dps runepriest?
Or do you mean, if you exchange mara for magus or sorc, you fare better?
Thats are facts?!

You're allowed to disagree, lol this isn't a dictator ship. I believe having a heal-debuff as a tactic is incorrect because no other class has to sacrifice a tactic to get heal-debuff (except dok and runey/zealot but I'm trying to just focus on marauder and the other [true]dps classes.).

Having to use a tactic nerfs the amount of damage you can deal as a dps since instead of being able to use 4 damaging/utility tactics you're forced into using a utility tactic for a archetype that should be focusing on using damaging tactics.

Deeply impaled/Flanking/Brute Froce/Jagged Edge/Feeding on Fear/Growing Instability/Piercing Bite/Riposte/ Or whatever you want. Pick 3 and then you have to use Deadly Clutch to heal-debuff.

Other classes can pick 4 of their tactics and just grab the ability. I think that's a fundamental flaw with the marauder class from a 6 man group perspective in terms of viability and desirability. It's a kind of diversity that is harmful rather than helpful or unique. Really stupid example but its like if every vending machine around town costed $1 to buy a soda but there was one vending machine that costed $1.50 and you got an off-brand soda. Now not a huge issue if you're not picky or just incredibly thirsty but that vending machine would never be sought after and would probably be avoided if possible and that's kinda how marauder's heal-debuff is currently. Again its a pretty shitty example, haha. Feel free to take that with a grain of salt.

If you can't understand how big a difference using a tactic to get a tool everyone else gets in the form of an ability then we probably will never see eye-to-eye.

Armor debuffs and whatever you mentioned are completely irrelevant I am not talking about other tools, strictly heal-debuff and again I've stated a heal debuff to a dps is like a KD to a tank, it's pretty important and yes I think every dps should get access to one. Even the dreaded White Lion but that class over preforms incredibly right now and if you were to make the argument they shouldn't get a heal-debuff because they're too strong it might have some sound value. Where as the same argument doesn't hold up to marauder because he isn't hitting 2k+ in 1 GCD with a 10 second springboard nor does he have a 2handed weapon or a pet helping deal dmg and debuffs. Again I'm not here to debate about mara vs whitelions, just about marauder healdebuff vs all others.

Marauders tactic based heal debuff used to be 75% but that was over-powered and now it remains the increased cost of 11points and tactic slot.

Marauder isn't a weak class, its not an underpowered class. Put into perspective of other classes he might be less desirable but that is exactly my point. To put marauder on the right track and fix an issue with the class he should be given the same treatment of classes better/on par with him. He'll still be playable if he doesn't get this change, and I'm sure no one will lose sleep about it but it is an issue, class and game design wise. There are other issues out there as well that are present but I personally only feel comfortable bringing to light issues that I am confident about or have personal experience with as a player of the game in RoR since 2014 in t1, with a higher level marauder and as someone who plays in a group environment regularly.

The fundamental proposal isn't, "Order is stronger than destro this is absurd." It's, "There is an imbalance here, and it doesn't make a lot of sense why let me point it out and a potential solution."

[TenTonHammer]

If anyone wants to even remotely consider making tainted claw into a specable ability then it should be 9 points like all other mdps specable inc hd

The notion that it should be 13 pts to spec is ludicrous

How so? The White Lion outgoing heal debuff is a 13 pt ability, and Tainted Claw already required a 11 point tactic to be useful. How many Marauder's spec the heal debuff and don't go grab Thunderous Blows at 13 points?

It's not ludicrous at all, in fact, this is how you balance. It makes much more sense for the heal debuff to be 13 then it does for thunderous blows to be at 13, which is nonsense.

Multiple others have already pointed to you why your proposals are a bad idea

So I won’t bother reiterating the same arguments

But I will point this out to you

You are comparing a 13 point outgoing heal debuff on a class ment to kill casters and healers to an Incomming heal debuff that requires the consumption of a tactics slot

And more importantly the 13 point outgoing heal debuff is already mirrored on choppa so there is no grounds to say “but white lion”

[Grock]

And more importantly the 13 point outgoing heal debuff is already mirrored on choppa so there is no grounds to say “but white lion”

as if it has any real use

[jughurta69]

And more importantly the 13 point outgoing heal debuff is already mirrored on choppa so there is no grounds to say “but white lion”

as if it has any real use

absolutely


the current mara is almost perfect
The only thing that would make it competitive is an unconditional "free" stun by keeping the distance like any other dps

or while keeping the current one but putting it on display, dodge and disprove

if you want to play debuff heal, use it but nothing will oblige you if you had an unconditional stun you would have more choice

The mirror class is the SW not the WL. it has a stun range, melee, unconditional disarm, silence, more armor, more burst, more critical, shadow step + 25%, stance buffs, assault OMG

the mara is good, it would be better with an instant stun

The only tracks of work could be the buff 5s of the brutality and savagery postures
Especially the stun
For other skills I find them great

the mara is a debuff dps that's what makes it specific tactics are a choice for you or not to see if you want to debuff heal or not


I play with I don't complain, the only thing he misses is a stun to compete
with other mdps

Ps rework pull , pull mara 2s cast , disrupt , range , hills , silent etc.... Engi , Wl pass through everything, placement structures and bring you back even if you have to cross the distance of a third of the map


Google trad lol

[Foofmonger]

If anyone wants to even remotely consider making tainted claw into a specable ability then it should be 9 points like all other mdps specable inc hd

The notion that it should be 13 pts to spec is ludicrous

How so? The White Lion outgoing heal debuff is a 13 pt ability, and Tainted Claw already required a 11 point tactic to be useful. How many Marauder's spec the heal debuff and don't go grab Thunderous Blows at 13 points?

It's not ludicrous at all, in fact, this is how you balance. It makes much more sense for the heal debuff to be 13 then it does for thunderous blows to be at 13, which is nonsense.

Multiple others have already pointed to you why your proposals are a bad idea

So I won’t bother reiterating the same arguments

But I will point this out to you

You are comparing a 13 point outgoing heal debuff on a class ment to kill casters and healers to an Incomming heal debuff that requires the consumption of a tactics slot

And more importantly the 13 point outgoing heal debuff is already mirrored on choppa so there is no grounds to say “but white lion”

I'm not really "comparing" anything, and I think you are getting me mixed up with some other posters (I had one proposal, nor did anyone actually "prove" it was a bad idea). I was just pointing out that there "are" 13 point heal debuffs. I could have used Choppa for the example as well. Sheesh man, relax. 9 points is fine too if you want to put cutting claw at 13, it's honestly whatever.

The reality is, a 13 point ability is still better than an 11 point tactic, let's get real here. Sure a 9 is better than both, but I don't think the devs would realistically do that, so 13 is what we call a compromise. 9 would be ideal.