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Mara Proposal

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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
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Rumpel
Posts: 359

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#41 » Tue May 12, 2020 12:11 pm

saupreusse wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 10:35 pm Well how i see it mara has the all the debuffs and toola one could want. Its just fair that you need a tactic slot to healdebuff more. You can simply add a squig or witch elf or dok for healdebuffs. You refer a few times that sw has a hdb but yeah squig has exactly the same. I dont think mara needs easier access to the hdb. Yout got the strongest armor debuff, a wounds debuff, and a toughness deinbuff iirc. Also you are a LOT tankier than any other dps class and you have one of the most useful self heal out of all dps classes.
These are allways THE arguments BUT without mentioning a mara don't get this all together...it belongs to the stance so you are tanky OR you get superb debuffs. Mara isn't that what it is described here.
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Rumpel
Posts: 359

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#42 » Tue May 12, 2020 1:57 pm

Omegus wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 8:33 am
And if you want to combine it with a cooldown reducer then it has no CD at all. If focusing the ability on a single target then at 5s it's much easier to keep applied through cleanses, and with a CD reducer it's pretty much impossible to remove. The Marauder has a weak baseline heal debuff (which other classes don't get) and with a tactic it has a far better heal debuff than other classes get. In terms of being able to spread it and/or keep it applied to one target only DOKs have it beat if they reliably crit.

Too right it's an 11 point tactic.
This sounds logical. If you place it on two targets then you got you 50% 😉
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wachlarz
Posts: 798

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#43 » Tue May 12, 2020 2:09 pm

Runic have 5 sec cleanse. So will be 1 button fight xd. All premade take now maruder xd

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adamthelc
Posts: 832

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#44 » Tue May 12, 2020 2:17 pm

A 25% inc HD is a pointless ability. So essentially you have a worthless ability unless you equip a tactic slot. Its bad design. Its not a class or faction balance issue.

And on top of that it can only be used in a single stance. The only other class with stances doesn't have that issue. Unless you count SH then there is another destruction class with that issue.

The ability deserves to be looked at because its terrible. It probably won't be and I don't really care because I don't play Marauder, but that doesn't mean its not a terribly thought out ability and tactic.

Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#45 » Tue May 12, 2020 2:23 pm

So the Mara heal debuff sucks, I think that's been covered in this thread to death, it has a lot of issues and I'd personally love to see it changed. However, as many people have pointed out, you'd also have to balance it to accommodate for the change, and there shouldn't be just a "straight Mara buff". Here's what I would do personally if I were the devs:

1. Remove Tainted Claw as a baseline ability. Put Draining Swipes at baseline. Draining Swipes as a core ability is hardly "strong", and this is basically a nerf.

2. Put Thunderous Blows back as the 5 point Savagery ability like it should be and always was. This is a small buff, but it's to fix a nerf from 2015 when this server was in t2 and early wounds debuffs mattered. They don't. You can still keep the nerfed value, so it's still nerfed overall from where it was on live.

3. Put Tainted Claw back in as the 13 point Savagery ability. The Marauder shouldn't have a 5 or 9 point heal debuff IMO, it should be 13 points for balance. Double the cooldown of tainted claw to 10 seconds to make it work like other heal debuffs. Boost it to a 50% heal debuff baseline, to be worth a 13 point ability.

4. Completely remove the current heal debuff/drain life tactic. The drain life is garbage, the fact that the Marauder has to waste a tactic slot is garbage, it's just pure garbage. Throw this entire tactic into the garbage bin.

5. Give Mara's a new random 11pt tactic, really doesn't even matter what it does, as long as it is occasionally situationally useful.

These changes would achieve a variety of things:

1. The Mara heal debuff would be much harder to get, and objectively weaker as an ability (higher cooldown), but frees up the Marauder to not have to waste a tactic slot to do what other DPS can do without one.

2. Draining Swipes, which is savagery only abiity, would be core instead of the 25% tainted claw, which is argueably weaker early on. Later on it still removes a Mara who doesn't spec for 13 savagery to get any heal debuff, which is fair.

3. Thunderous Blows goes back to where it should be and allows for more Marauder spec diversity.

TLDR: Nerf the heal debuff cooldown, remove it as a core ability, put it as a 13 point savagery ability, increase the debuff to 50%, and remove the tactic.

In my opinion, the above changes would be relatively balanced. This is a give and take, and the Marauder needs to give up something to get something here. That being said, the current way in which the Marauder heal debuffs is totally stupid and sucks in comparison to every other class with a heal debuff in the game. It made a lot of sense at live when the Marauder healing debuff tactic boosted Tainted Claw to a 75% heal debuff (which was overpowered), but the change to the tactic to make it 50% with the horrible horrible worthless lifeleech was a terrible decision by Mythic. It was a stupid idea in 2009, and it's still a stupid idea in 2020.

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adamthelc
Posts: 832

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#46 » Tue May 12, 2020 2:31 pm

Omegus wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 8:33 am
Stophy22 wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 9:52 pmbut Mara is about as bottom barrel of Destro a dps as it gets.
...
Now you can do this on Mara, but only with a tactic. Every. Single. Class. Gets heal debuff in the form of an ability except Mara and WL.
The Marauder gets a weak heal debuff as baseline. It then gets a tactic which turns it into a strong heal debuff AND turns it into a heal leech. You keep ignoring the fact that the Marauder's tactic doesn't just give it a 50% heal debuff. And I assume going by the ability descriptions that it can keep the heal leech up on 2 targets at once (5s duration CD on Tainted Claw with a 10s duration if you cripple the target first which is trivial).

WE: 10s duration, 10s cooldown
WH: 10s duration, 10s cooldown
SL: 10s duration, 10s cooldown
CH: 10s duration, 10s cooldown
WL: 10s duration, 10s cooldown
MA: 10s duration, 5s cooldown, also has heal leech.

And if you want to combine it with a cooldown reducer then it has no CD at all. If focusing the ability on a single target then at 5s it's much easier to keep applied through cleanses, and with a CD reducer it's pretty much impossible to remove. The Marauder has a weak baseline heal debuff (which other classes don't get) and with a tactic it has a far better heal debuff than other classes get. In terms of being able to spread it and/or keep it applied to one target only DOKs have it beat if they reliably crit.

Too right it's an 11 point tactic.
It wouldn't be hard to give it a 10 second CD if you were already making changes to it. If you want to see how valued the life leach is make the ability 50% and leave the heal leach on the tactic. See how many people still use the tactic.

Destro kind of suffers in the HD department because of how good the DoK HD, especially when compared to WP. AM has much higher uptime than Shaman, mSW has a much more usable HD that mSH and sorc doesn't even get a HD while BW does. Which is all fine as long as you bring a dps DoK.

I didn't even want to get into faction balance because I think it takes the argument away from the real issue which is the HD on Marauder is just bad design.

3 dps Classes have no access to an ability based HD of any kind. Sorc, Magus and engineer. mSH and Marauder have restrictive HDs. White Lions only have access to an outgoing HD.

So when it comes to dos classes order clearly has a better situation. When you start bringing in tanks and healers then you could argue destro comes back in line, but I still think it's close enough that you can fix the terrible marauder situation without really effecting faction balance. Considering you aren't really giving them anything new.

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Grock
Posts: 918

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#47 » Tue May 12, 2020 2:37 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 2:23 pm So the Mara heal debuff sucks, I think that's been covered in this thread to death, it has a lot of issues and I'd personally love to see it changed. However, as many people have pointed out, you'd also have to balance it to accommodate for the change, and there shouldn't be just a "straight Mara buff". Here's what I would do personally if I were the devs:

1. Remove Tainted Claw as a baseline ability. Put Draining Swipes at baseline. Draining Swipes as a core ability is hardly "strong", and this is basically a nerf.

2. Put Thunderous Blows back as the 5 point Savagery ability like it should be and always was. This is a small buff, but it's to fix a nerf from 2015 when this server was in t2 and early wounds debuffs mattered. They don't. You can still keep the nerfed value, so it's still nerfed overall from where it was on live.

3. Put Tainted Claw back in as the 13 point Savagery ability. The Marauder shouldn't have a 5 or 9 point heal debuff IMO, it should be 13 points for balance. Double the cooldown of tainted claw to 10 seconds to make it work like other heal debuffs. Boost it to a 50% heal debuff baseline, to be worth a 13 point ability.

4. Completely remove the current heal debuff/drain life tactic. The drain life is garbage, the fact that the Marauder has to waste a tactic slot is garbage, it's just pure garbage. Throw this entire tactic into the garbage bin.

5. Give Mara's a new random 11pt tactic, really doesn't even matter what it does, as long as it is occasionally situationally useful.

These changes would achieve a variety of things:

1. The Mara heal debuff would be much harder to get, and objectively weaker as an ability (higher cooldown), but frees up the Marauder to not have to waste a tactic slot to do what other DPS can do without one.

2. Draining Swipes, which is savagery only abiity, would be core instead of the 25% tainted claw, which is argueably weaker early on. Later on it still removes a Mara who doesn't spec for 13 savagery to get any heal debuff, which is fair.

3. Thunderous Blows goes back to where it should be and allows for more Marauder spec diversity.

TLDR: Nerf the heal debuff cooldown, remove it as a core ability, put it as a 13 point savagery ability, increase the debuff to 50%, and remove the tactic.

In my opinion, the above changes would be relatively balanced. This is a give and take, and the Marauder needs to give up something to get something here. That being said, the current way in which the Marauder heal debuffs is totally stupid and sucks in comparison to every other class with a heal debuff in the game. It made a lot of sense at live when the Marauder healing debuff tactic boosted Tainted Claw to a 75% heal debuff (which was overpowered), but the change to the tactic to make it 50% with the horrible horrible worthless lifeleech was a terrible decision by Mythic. It was a stupid idea in 2009, and it's still a stupid idea in 2020.
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normanis
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Re: Mara Proposal

Post#48 » Tue May 12, 2020 2:59 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 2:23 pm So the Mara heal debuff sucks, I think that's been covered in this thread to death, it has a lot of issues and I'd personally love to see it changed. However, as many people have pointed out, you'd also have to balance it to accommodate for the change, and there shouldn't be just a "straight Mara buff". Here's what I would do personally if I were the devs:

1. Remove Tainted Claw as a baseline ability. Put Draining Swipes at baseline. Draining Swipes as a core ability is hardly "strong", and this is basically a nerf.

2. Put Thunderous Blows back as the 5 point Savagery ability like it should be and always was. This is a small buff, but it's to fix a nerf from 2015 when this server was in t2 and early wounds debuffs mattered. They don't. You can still keep the nerfed value, so it's still nerfed overall from where it was on live.

3. Put Tainted Claw back in as the 13 point Savagery ability. The Marauder shouldn't have a 5 or 9 point heal debuff IMO, it should be 13 points for balance. Double the cooldown of tainted claw to 10 seconds to make it work like other heal debuffs. Boost it to a 50% heal debuff baseline, to be worth a 13 point ability.

4. Completely remove the current heal debuff/drain life tactic. The drain life is garbage, the fact that the Marauder has to waste a tactic slot is garbage, it's just pure garbage. Throw this entire tactic into the garbage bin.

5. Give Mara's a new random 11pt tactic, really doesn't even matter what it does, as long as it is occasionally situationally useful.

These changes would achieve a variety of things:

1. The Mara heal debuff would be much harder to get, and objectively weaker as an ability (higher cooldown), but frees up the Marauder to not have to waste a tactic slot to do what other DPS can do without one.

2. Draining Swipes, which is savagery only abiity, would be core instead of the 25% tainted claw, which is argueably weaker early on. Later on it still removes a Mara who doesn't spec for 13 savagery to get any heal debuff, which is fair.

3. Thunderous Blows goes back to where it should be and allows for more Marauder spec diversity.

TLDR: Nerf the heal debuff cooldown, remove it as a core ability, put it as a 13 point savagery ability, increase the debuff to 50%, and remove the tactic.

In my opinion, the above changes would be relatively balanced. This is a give and take, and the Marauder needs to give up something to get something here. That being said, the current way in which the Marauder heal debuffs is totally stupid and sucks in comparison to every other class with a heal debuff in the game. It made a lot of sense at live when the Marauder healing debuff tactic boosted Tainted Claw to a 75% heal debuff (which was overpowered), but the change to the tactic to make it 50% with the horrible horrible worthless lifeleech was a terrible decision by Mythic. It was a stupid idea in 2009, and it's still a stupid idea in 2020.
so u whnat thunderous blow in mosntro stance/brut stance aswell? maby replace also crit damage in sav tree to heald debuff tactic so mosntro mara has crit damage and wounds debuff ( its dont require arms) and brut tree will be skipped by anyone. :twisted:
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Nefarian78
Posts: 460

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#49 » Tue May 12, 2020 3:12 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 2:23 pm 3. Put Tainted Claw back in as the 13 point Savagery ability. The Marauder shouldn't have a 5 or 9 point heal debuff IMO, it should be 13 points for balance. Double the cooldown of tainted claw to 10 seconds to make it work like other heal debuffs. Boost it to a 50% heal debuff baseline, to be worth a 13 point ability.
So, you're basically nerfing a class that is already sharing the bottom of the barrel with choppas in terms of 6v6 and making Brutality even less viable than it already is? In exchange maras get Draining Swipe (one of the worst abilities in the game) and a 5pts Thunderous Blow which is just barely stronger than a BG's Hastened Doom and a 10s cd Tainted Claw with no lifesteal.

This isn't trading something for something else, it's self-mutilation.
They done stole my character's names. Can't have **** in RoR.

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TenTonHammer
Posts: 3807

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#50 » Tue May 12, 2020 3:23 pm

If anyone wants to even remotely consider making tainted claw into a specable ability then it should be 9 points like all other mdps specable inc hd

The notion that it should be 13 pts to spec is ludicrous
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