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Stophy22
Posts: 339

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#31 » Mon May 11, 2020 8:09 pm

jokerspsycho wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 7:51 pm
Stophy22 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 5:54 pm
Spoiler:
Disarm (after parry happens)
KD (after disrupt happens)
Toughness Debuff
Dmg on melee ability use
Dmg on magic ability use
Armor Debuff (Very good tool, one of mara's very big +'s)
Enemy gains actionpoints 50% slower debuff
Heal debuff (if he uses tactic)
Crit increase (single target) if he uses tactic
Wounds Debuff (13pts into savage tree so he can get this or...)
Aoe Morale drain (13pts into Brutality tree so he can get this or...)
aoe interrupt is worthy of note too
Alright now in perspective a WE can do:
Spoiler:
KD
Disarm (after parry)
Morale Drain (is a KD as well)
Toughness/Weaponskill debuff
Heal Debuff (incoming and outgoing depending on kiss used)
dmg on movement
dmg on melee ability
dmg on magic use
Silence
6 second stagger
action point shenanigans
Are you suggesting giving mara heal debuff bc we has it or giving we the other tools that mara has? Bc those lists arent to similiar. Or are u suggesting all classes should have the same debuffs?

U also said, [paraphrasing] "these can be covered by other classes" which also applies to mara not having a 50% IHD.

I personally dont see how mara needs every utility in the game which is touted as a group game. At least that's what I hear as a wh/we when asking for changes. "Its a group game group with people to bring what you dont have.
If you read the original proposal I suggest giving Mara a heal debuff because he’s the only mdps that does not have it in the form of an ability. He has to use a tactic. I find this unfair and or unclear why he has to use a tactic, other than the fact that he has a standard 25% heal debuff. Which is not good. And will never be considered adequate in a group environment if you’re seriously trying to kill someone.

I was comparing WE to Mara in forms of tools because several people talk about his tool kit being so grand and unique. So I explained how WE has a similar tool kit.

Please don’t put words in my mouth I don’t believe all classes should have same utility or skills but some things should be standard on a dps. A heal debuff is one of those, in the form of a 9-5pt ability. Paraphrasing I also said maras debuffs can be covered by a tank (at least the ones that make him valuable).

Also you talk about how the list isn’t very similar... how? The only thing different is a wounds debuff and armor debuff. WE also has a silence and stagger. Mara has other things too so I’m not saying he needs a silence and a stagger, lol.

Remember diversity is good I touch on this in the proposal, things will be stagnant if they all become the same. All tanks have taunt and challenge and can spec into a KD. Just like that KD that tanks can spec into, dps should have a heal debuff they can spec into. I’m ability form. Not tactic. And I explained why in my proposal Mara and doks are the only guys with tactical debuffs.

Hopefully things are clarified now.
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jokerspsycho
Posts: 245

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#32 » Mon May 11, 2020 9:20 pm

Stophy22 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 8:09 pm

Please don’t put words in my mouth I don’t believe all classes should have same utility or skills but some things should be standard on a dps. A heal debuff is one of those, in the form of a 9-5pt ability.

Paraphrasing I also said maras debuffs can be covered by a tank (at least the ones that make him valuable).

Remember diversity is good ....things will be stagnant if they all become the same.
I feel like this is contradictory. you want things to be different but also want one skill, which u already have in the form of a trait and a 50% leech off that trait to be more sustained, to be shared over all the dps classes. What would you lose to get this considering mara is a well rounded class with good debuffs and iirc it is the only class with a core mechanic that can ignore 100% armpen. Definitely not a class lacking atm. Should dok get it as well?

A tank can cover debuffs for a party just like another dps can cover a HD.

I 1000% agree with this last statement and feel classes should have less overlapping skills and utility to give them more unique feels giving a reason to bring other classes to the fray. No one class should be able to do everything depending on their build at the time.

Though I'm not a dev or close to one so maybe they will agree.

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Stophy22
Posts: 339

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#33 » Mon May 11, 2020 9:52 pm

jokerspsycho wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 9:20 pm
Stophy22 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 8:09 pm

Please don’t put words in my mouth I don’t believe all classes should have same utility or skills but some things should be standard on a dps. A heal debuff is one of those, in the form of a 9-5pt ability.

Paraphrasing I also said maras debuffs can be covered by a tank (at least the ones that make him valuable).

Remember diversity is good ....things will be stagnant if they all become the same.
I feel like this is contradictory. you want things to be different but also want one skill, which u already have in the form of a trait and a 50% leech off that trait to be more sustained, to be shared over all the dps classes. What would you lose to get this considering mara is a well rounded class with good debuffs and iirc it is the only class with a core mechanic that can ignore 100% armpen. Definitely not a class lacking atm. Should dok get it as well?

A tank can cover debuffs for a party just like another dps can cover a HD.

I 1000% agree with this last statement and feel classes should have less overlapping skills and utility to give them more unique feels giving a reason to bring other classes to the fray. No one class should be able to do everything depending on their build at the time.

Though I'm not a dev or close to one so maybe they will agree.
If Mara was over preforming in anyway I’d maybe agree it should lose something to get it’s heal debuff, but Mara is about as bottom barrel of Destro a dps as it gets. Idk if you only play a WH or if you’ve played both sides or have played for many years on the server but Mara doesn’t need to lose anything to get something other classes have except him.

I’ll expand on this a little more since some people seem to be confused the same way.

Yes things should be diverse otherwise they are boring. I agree. It’s not contradictory to say a dps should have a heal debuff. That is about as contradictory as saying all tanks should have a KD. And they do, shocker it’s like tanks should have a way to cc people, like it’s apart of their role or something. If you’re a dps player trying to kill someone and they are getting healed for 500+ endgame and you’re just trying to kill them through fully stacked heals, you’re doing it wrong. Grab a healdebuff and save yourself so many questions.

Now you can do this on Mara, but only with a tactic. Every. Single. Class. Gets heal debuff in the form of an ability except Mara and WL.

Now white lions case is different. I don’t have a lvl 40 white lion nor do I play one so obviously I’m not to suggest changes on the class OUTSIDE of what I know.

What I do know: WL over preforms in killing potential and tools. Lacks heal debuff just like Mara.

So the proposal isn’t about, “oh we give marauder this and he loses this in return” how does that help a class who is not doing so well compared to his class mates.

A true proposal is looking at both sides without favoring one side; marauder lacks a heal debuff. White lion does too. These classes should get what they deserve. Mara should get it like this. White lions should get it like this.

Now in my proposal if you even read it I talk about how marauder is a tactic heavy class. Imagine if you had to lose a tactic on WH just to KD someone. You spec into an ability to get your KD. KD is pretty vital to your class to kill someone and extend that, “oh **** I’m getting jumped” moment.

For the final time I will explain this as well.

1.)
Marauders don’t ignore 100% armorpen without monstro spec. They have to get the proc to go off, and even then they can’t leave the stance. The buff does not stay when you switch stances even if it has 5 seconds left. monstro spec is not viable for single target burst.

2.) savagery/brutality spec is what I’m talking about. If you’re an aoe morale draining wrecking ball you couldnt give less of a **** if someone is healdebuffed.

3.) arguments about maras, “aoe KD” and whatever nonsense he gets from monstro spec does not hold up as a valid argument because when you go into savagery you spec into brutality second, it would be awfully silly to spec savage/monstro to get aoe KD and init debuff if you’re trying to kill a singular person as a designated dmg dealing class.

I have no issue with maras monstro spec (in this thread) and when you use that as an argument it just makes me think that you have no idea what I’m talking about, or you haven’t read the proposal. If you really want a give and take, maras lose 5-9pts into a mastery tree to get their heal debuff (after proposal). Just like every other dps loses to get a heal debuff. Seems pretty fair.

Even giving the suggestion to give it to WL which a lot of people are opposed to so far but you don’t make a change without correct give and take and what a lot of uneducated people think about war hammer is the give and take can only come from one source. Extremely close minded thought process and is a recipe for stagnation.

IF Mara was the **** bill gates of dps classes I could understand the arguments being thrown at me but he’s **** not. He’s closer to that of a small business owner who could rise to great success if given good advice and direction.
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jughurta69
Posts: 29

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#34 » Mon May 11, 2020 10:47 pm

.
Last edited by jughurta69 on Tue May 12, 2020 1:04 am, edited 3 times in total.

jokerspsycho
Posts: 245

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#35 » Mon May 11, 2020 11:31 pm

Stophy22 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 9:52 pm

If Mara was over preforming in anyway I’d maybe agree it should lose something to get it’s heal debuff, but Mara is about as bottom barrel of Destro a dps as it gets.

If you’re a dps player trying to kill someone and they are getting healed for 500+ endgame and you’re just trying to kill them through fully stacked heals, you’re doing it wrong. Grab a healdebuff and save yourself so many questions.

Now you can do this on Mara, but only with a tactic. Every. Single. Class. Gets heal debuff in the form of an ability except Mara and WL.


Now in my proposal if you even read it I talk about how marauder is a tactic heavy class. Imagine if you had to lose a tactic on WH just to KD someone. You spec into an ability to get your KD. KD is pretty vital to your class to kill someone and extend that, “oh **** I’m getting jumped” moment.

arguments about maras, “aoe KD” and whatever nonsense he gets from monstro spec does not hold up as a valid argument
I'm guessing your talking about ST build here or else, lol

Yes u can even do that yourself atm, while making yourself more tanky via getting 50% of the enemies heals, or bring a friend who has a IHD or ohd to put on the healer and stack it with your baseline hd

I'm also against WL getting a IHD. they have good damage and personal utility I dont think they need more.

Wh is a very tactic heavy class. In fact I have 4 tactic presets I swap between before engagement, one for a general fight vs anyone, vs melee, vs caster, vs both, and an aoe/keep/fort setup if I had to slot a tactic for kd I would choose what set up it belonged in and change how i needed to.

Not having a skill when you are one spec doesnt make it an arguement to get more utility. I cant complain about not having a stun when speccing exit wounds+duelist. I have the options to go get a stun still even if I didnt pick it up.

It is obvious we wont see eye to eye on this situation so I will say good luck in your endeavor and have a pleasant day.

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Stophy22
Posts: 339

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#36 » Mon May 11, 2020 11:55 pm

jokerspsycho wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 11:31 pm
I'm guessing your talking about ST build here or else, lol
It seems like you either don’t read what I type or don’t care. Which is fine. I’ve stated multiple times in talking about single target marauder.

I don’t mind viewing what other people say or present as long as the argument is strong.

It’s okay if you don’t see eye to eye with me I don’t expect everyone to but I will defend what I’m proposing, because why even write it up in the first place if I didn’t give it a lot of thought and reason and aren’t ready to defend it.

I get it other classes can bring what I’m saying the Mara lacks. But I’m advocating for marauder to be one of those classes you can bring, at least on the heal debuff side of things.

Also to touch on what we talked about earlier if your class had to bring a tactic to KD, I would look at why only your class has to slot a KD and propose for a change.

I don’t mind speccing and and losing certain things. My current spec I don’t take wounds debuff and I take morale drain instead since I really enjoy having that utility.

Being able to have give in take in a mastery tree is pretty standard, Mara is very interesting because he has about two “standard” specs. One where he has aoe and is monstro/brutality. And one where he’s single target In savagery/brutality. Savagery and brut has a few different iterations; one with heal debuff. One with ap drain, etc. etc. all depends on what play style you want. You should be able to choose the healdebuff play style the same as it is now, it should just not be a friggen tactic because no other class has to use a tactic for heal debuff. Some classes even get it as a 5pt ability. But way up at 11 points Mara can turn their diet healdebuff into a healdebuff.

If you don’t see an issue with that then I guess we will never see eye to eye. Maybe you don’t understand how important a heal debuff is. Maybe you don’t understand 6v6 compositions. Maybe you do! Idk man thanks for chiming in with your opinion about my topic.
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Fey
Posts: 506

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#37 » Tue May 12, 2020 12:44 am

This here is as ridiculous as the IB thread currently swirling the drain. I've exhausted my feeble brain power posting over there. Mara is fine. Move along sir.
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Stophy22
Posts: 339

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#38 » Tue May 12, 2020 1:03 am

Fey wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 12:44 am
This here is as ridiculous as the IB thread currently swirling the drain. I've exhausted my feeble brain power posting over there. Mara is fine. Move along sir.
That’s one opinion I suppose. Thanks!


Aye move along indeed, maybe I’ll go read this IB thread. My brain power is being exhausted by how few people don’t read my post and decide to comment on it. Ciao!
Last edited by Stophy22 on Tue May 12, 2020 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Omegus
Posts: 414

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#39 » Tue May 12, 2020 8:33 am

Stophy22 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 9:52 pm
but Mara is about as bottom barrel of Destro a dps as it gets.
...
Now you can do this on Mara, but only with a tactic. Every. Single. Class. Gets heal debuff in the form of an ability except Mara and WL.
The Marauder gets a weak heal debuff as baseline. It then gets a tactic which turns it into a strong heal debuff AND turns it into a heal leech. You keep ignoring the fact that the Marauder's tactic doesn't just give it a 50% heal debuff. And I assume going by the ability descriptions that it can keep the heal leech up on 2 targets at once (5s duration CD on Tainted Claw with a 10s duration if you cripple the target first which is trivial).

WE: 10s duration, 10s cooldown
WH: 10s duration, 10s cooldown
SL: 10s duration, 10s cooldown
CH: 10s duration, 10s cooldown
WL: 10s duration, 10s cooldown
MA: 10s duration, 5s cooldown, also has heal leech.

And if you want to combine it with a cooldown reducer then it has no CD at all. If focusing the ability on a single target then at 5s it's much easier to keep applied through cleanses, and with a CD reducer it's pretty much impossible to remove. The Marauder has a weak baseline heal debuff (which other classes don't get) and with a tactic it has a far better heal debuff than other classes get. In terms of being able to spread it and/or keep it applied to one target only DOKs have it beat if they reliably crit.

Too right it's an 11 point tactic.
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Stophy22
Posts: 339

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#40 » Tue May 12, 2020 9:14 am

Omegus wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 8:33 am
Stophy22 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 9:52 pm
but Mara is about as bottom barrel of Destro a dps as it gets.
...
Now you can do this on Mara, but only with a tactic. Every. Single. Class. Gets heal debuff in the form of an ability except Mara and WL.
The Marauder gets a weak heal debuff as baseline. It then gets a tactic which turns it into a strong heal debuff AND turns it into a heal leech.

Too right it's an 11 point tactic.
Spoiler:
If you think that mara having a heal leech attached to his heal debuff is justification to an 11point tactical heal debuff instead of having a standard 9-5pt ability heal debuff your way of thinking amazes me.

The CD argument is decent, so I'm willing to add to my proposal giving it the standard 10 second CD. That's something I can see as fair. But I'll give an alternative opinion later on*

Lets touch back on the heal leech that you imply justifies it being an 11 point tactic. What is the point of a heal debuff? Debuff the targets healing received and drop a target that's healing received is greater than damage done.

Why on earth would I need extra sustain if I'm trying to kill something? The lifesteal of mara healdebuff is just incredibly out of place it's not even funny. From the 6 man group perspective you have two people healing you, why do you need a heal leech? In the off-chance you fight x class 1 on 1 and he starts getting healed from an outside source and you steal his healing to ultimately kill him and his healer, Yeah I see its use. But a heal-debuff is not intended for solo use, its intended for group use. Maybe intended is the wrong word, It is utilized in a group environment. To go even further more solo roam spec mara doesn't take his Healdebuff, he just runs monstro, since its a more reliable heal and gives armor pen buff too, and you don't solo roam without CC.

Lets touch on the weak healdebuff as a baseline you mention.

How is this an argument to justify an 11point tactical requirement to get his healdebuff on the same level of everyone else. "Yeah he has this thing that is worse than everyone elses thing so the requirement to turn it into everyone elses thing is significantly more than everyone else."
If you think that Mara shouldn't get the same 9-5point (ability) heal-debuff because he has:

-life-leech on his healdebuff
-a weak healdebuff he doesn't have to spec for
-A tactic already

Or any other straw-man reasoning, don't chime-in in the first place because you don't know enough to have valid input. All of the a fore mentioned reasons are problems with the current way mara works, not bonuses. Again the 5second CD is a fair and valid point you brought up but everything else was just bogus. Hit me with some real facts. What other dps class looks at mara and goes, "damn I wish I had his lifesteal on that heal-debuff" No one because they have 9point ability heal debuffs that work great.

*As an alternative way of thinking, maybe maras 5 second heal-debuff is a uniqueness that will make him desireable in 6 man play, more so than his brethren. Maybe its justified because Brightwizards/WP have a 5pt heal debuff.

Too right its an 11point tactic indeed, that's what the entire proposals about.
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