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Stophy22
Posts: 336

Mara Proposal

Post#1 » Sun May 10, 2020 5:58 pm

So Mara's right now are the only dps class that has to use a tactic to get their Incoming Heal debuff. Every other class gets heal debuff as an ability, usually in the middle of their tree.
Spoiler:
The few exceptions include Dok/Runepriest/Zealot and Ironbreaker/Bg. The Tanks get an outgoing healdebuff though and the Dok/Runepriest/Zealot gets an "on critical hit" healdebuff that only lasts 5/10 seconds. Maybe there is a problem with Dok/RP/Zealot but not the original intent of post, just thought I would place it in a spoiler for credibility.
Here is a list of classes that get Incoming heal-debuffs as abilities at 9 point of a mastery tree

Order
Shadow warrior
Slayer
Archmage
Witch Hunter

Destro
Shaman
Choppa
Witch Elf
Squig Herder

Here is a list of classes that get incoming heal-debuff as abilities at 5 point of a mastery tree

Order
Bright Wizard
Warrior Priest

Here is a list of classes that get incoming heal-debuff as an 11 point tactic of a mastery tree

Order
RunePriest

Destro
DoK
Marauder
Zealot

Honorable mentions include:
White Lions 13point Outgoing Heal-debuff
Knights 15% heal increase aura
Chosens 25% heal decrease aura
Ironbreaker/BG 7point tactic outgoing heal-debuff
Choppas 13point Outgoing Heal-debuff execute (2nd heal-debuff of class)

Now to remain without bias and to try and put up a strong argument we have 2 dps classes with an 11 point tactic heal-debuff. Disciple of Khaine and Marauder (You could say zealot and runepriest are there too but since they're direct mirrors and their heal-debuffs are 10seconds long I won't bring these guys up anymore.) Now Marauders mirror is White lion/Shadow warrior. Mechanically its shadow warrior, they share the stances. Ability wise and class archetype its White Lion.

Now Marauder is kinda unique because it has an ability you learn early on called Tainted claw which is a 25% incoming heal debuff for 5-10 seconds. The 11 point tactic increases this to 50% and that's where marauder gets it's Inc Heal debuff. Since the Dok is not really what im proposing about nor do I play dps dok as much as I play marauder I'd like to exodus them from the argument here. But if anyone else feels to propose a 5second on crit 11point tactic vs a 5point 10 seconds ability, maybe there is something there.

Strictly talking heal-debuffs and nothing else about the class I'd like to talk about mara vs its two cousins, whitelion and Shadow warrior. And Since mirroring abilities and tactics 100% would make for stale gameplay I have a proposal that isn't that to kind of give options but regardless let me hop in and make my arguments.

Mara Vs Whitelion
So in this match-up mara wins. He has his 11point tactic and its incoming vs a 13point ability that is out-going. For those of you that do not know an out-going heal debuff can pretty much only see use being applied to a healer. Since WL has pounce maybe you can make the argument that WL's can jump around heal-debuffing all the healers but I think this is grasping at straws at best. So why don't we call it good and leave it as is? Well Marauder is a tactic heavy class. You need Growing Instability and Piercing Bite to get similar damage to other M-dps classes. Right now on destro a meme is going around that mara only has 20% more dmg potential than BO 2hand spec. So using those two tactics on mara you can then spec into your 11point heal debuff but you lose out on a lot of mara's dmg oriented tactics: Brute force, Flanking, Deeply Impaled, Feeding on Fear, Jagged Edge, Riposte, and whatever ones you would argue after that. So using a tactic slot for a heal debuff on marauder is kinda rough as already being classified as a "tanky dps" even in his single target Melee DPS spec. Not to mention besides White lion hes the only dps class that doesn't have a heal debuff. Alright enough has been said lets jump over to Shadow Warrior
Mara Vs Shadow Warrior
Shadow Warrior has the standard 9point ability heal debuff, No stance requirement. 65 foot range. Pretty awesome stuff. Mara has his 11point tactic but whats interesting here is Shadow warrior has (in path of assault) 2 abilities @ 13 and 15 points. Nomrally you'd get a morale at 15 which is fine im not saying shadow warrior should lose its 15 point ability, just pointing it out. So a lot was already said in the White lion arguement explaining marauders predicament and I won't reiterate here. Lets jump down to the proposals.


So Marauder, in summary is the Tanky MDPS Class of destro! He's got his 11point tactic spec heal debuff where the majority of every other heal debuff comes into the hands of the other classes as a 9 point ability. His mirror White Lion is just as neglected but his shadowarrior cousin is livin large-healdebuff wise, so I give these 3 proposals.

1.
Spoiler:
Mara gets 3point Deadly Clutch tactic in path of savagery. Scything talons gets moved to 11 point tactic and Possibly gets replaced in the future with something more interested.

Reasoning: Right now all 3 point tactics of mara are borderline useless, A Maras playstyle is to stance dance. So in order for the 3 point tactics to be useful you have to either get 2/3 or 3/3 And using 2-3 tactics for stats when you have so many other good tactics is, to not sugar coat it, bad. On top of this you'll primarily wan't to sit in one stance which is self destructive to mara playstyle so if you only get 1 tactics its like, wow I'm really strong in path of savagery but lemme switch over to execute this guy and their goes my stats, Brute force just seems much better alternative even if maras have weak initiative in early gear, after sentinel/invader they're fine initiative wise. The 3 point tactics of each tree are not very good and are passed up by a majority of marauder players who understand how the class is played. If the tactics were to be changed to so something similiar to chosen aura (pre ROR) but applied to the gifts then maybe they'd have a place but at the end of the day, you can get stats with renown/gear if you're that starved. You cannot Bypass 50% armor with talis/renown/gear nor can you increase critical hit dmg by 50% with talis/renown/gear. Scything Talons, Corrupted Edge, and Hulking Brute are all tactics that can be replaced for something the class needs. Which is either its tactic based head debuff or an ability based heal debuff. If we keep it tactic based I don't think White Lion needs to be changed since it preforms better than marauder dmg wise and has more tools. On demand 3second KD, Silence, Gap close, 4hits 1GCD (Coordinated Derp). Vs Disrupt required KD, Parry required Disarm (strictly talking tools). You can make the argument that mara has on demand KD but that is Monstro Tree and I haven't talked about monstro marauder once in this proposal. Monstro/brut tree mara is completely different than Savagery/Brutality Mara. Anyway this is option 1.Honestly it probably favors Destro more, since no WL changes but we have 2 classes living large with 5point heal debuffs on orders side. I view the 13point outgoing as a sense of balance and diversity to this.
2.
Spoiler:
Mara and WL get 5point heal debuff Abilities.
-Tainted claw (50% inc heal debuff) becomes 5point in path of savagery while Draining swipe becomes either core or 3point path of savagery.
-Thin the Herd (50% inc heal debuff) comes 5 point in path of hunter while Pounce becomes either core or 13point path of Axeman.

Reasoning: The mara reason is already obvious but to explain, Order already has 2 classes with 5point heal debuffs. Lets talk about why white lion gets the short end of the stick if pounce moves to 13point axeman. With the way pounce currently is amazing. 10 second CD, movement speed increase, Hop to targets back, 65ft range, deals damage. Basically guarantees your gap close and target will not get away unless they use a Knock back. Knock backs have immunity so you wait 10 seconds and re-engage or you can use your charge and feline grace or fetch if you're that desperate. Pounce is amazing and its a 5point ability. Marauders 5 point abilities include draining swipe, which is pretty good dmg wise, but each indivudal hit can be parried. Guillotine is nice but if you really wanted to balance it out to match it at 9point cull the weak I wouldn't argue, but WL has coordinate strike where mara doesn't. And not really talking about monstro but wave of mutilation isn't really anything special. In my opinion Pounce is too good of a 5point ability and should be either core (since it defines the class) or has the correct pointage assigned to how strong the ability really is. Probably most "balanced" option and least diverse.
3.
Spoiler:
Both classes get their inc heal debuff. Mara as a 9point, White lion as an 11 point.
-Mara gets Tainted Claw(50% inc heal debuff) 9 points into savagery
-Cutting Claw moves to 5 point skill while Draining swipe becomes core or moves to 11 point ability in savagery or 3 point ability in savagery (scything talon, corrupted edge, hulking brute argument earlier)
-White Lion Thin the Herd(50% inc heal debuff) gets 11 point ability inc heal debuff to path of axeman and fullgrown gets moved to 13 point axeman and gets reworked sometime later*.

Reasoing: This gives Mara their inc heal debuff as all dps should have, It gives White Lion theirs, with a little bit of increased cost since the class has better options for dmg. I believe all parties are winners in this and it still keeps diversity and interesting spec tree options. If full grown gets reworked into something interested as a 13point ability(or tactic) it could really make the class interesting. The reasoning where Maras abilities get moved around is akin to the shadow warrior side of things where they get 13 and 15 point abilities. The issue with moving around Thunderous blow, Draining Swipe, and Mutated aggressor too carefree to accommodate a 50% heal debuff will either cause way to much imbalance in lower tiers of play or cause the marauder to invest too much into the things that gives him equal grounds on other damage dealing classes. Anyway some ending thoughts.

Draining swipe isn't good enough to move to 13point which is why I suggest core, but Thunderous blow could be moved to core for it being on par with coordinated strike. Personally there is a lot of diversity and I see that as good as it keeps the game interesting so the balance/changes I propose aren't 1 for 1 give and take. They take into account more going on, like how much is invested and what the class needs/wants. It's my firm believe that all dps classes should get some sort of inc heal debuff its just unfair that mara has to spend more and gets it in the form of a tactic. It would be unfair to only change Mara so that's why I touch on shadow warrior and White lion. With changes to Wave of mutation as well if you forsake that you lose a lot of dmg potential because that ability hits very hard and Having a morale drain utility is nice for a class that isn't favored as much on destro side. Now you could argue that wave of mutation is utility so mara should choose between his heal debuff and WoV I see that argument but I have a few points to argue as well.

EDIT: So far from being discussed it has been pointed out that tainted claw would need to have a 10 second CD instead of 5 and some people are advocating for the life-steal part of it being removed as well. so view the above so proposals with these changes in mind as well. There has also been one proposal very similar to my 3 where we take tainted claw, move it to 13pt ability, give it 50% heal debuff and 10second CD and move thunderous blow to 5 point ability and make draining swipe core. I'm in favor of this proposal as well the only issue is that mara will be the only class having to invest 13 points to get his HD which is a little problematic but I can compromise.

Final Thoughts

Before you come in here saying, "more destro buffs" "order loses more cities better buff destro" or anything of the sort, why not isolate what you see wrong and or make a proposition for it to shed light on the fact. I know the main argument going around is that destro has more pug friendly comps for city so why not suggest changes to classes where they don't get much use or love, I.E. Mara's 3 point tactics are just silly. We are in alpha so It doesn't hurt to try and write up a proposition and be fair with 0 bias. It might not be exact changes you propose but they might influence changes to happen. Anyway I just ask you come in here with a good mindset rather than a victimized mindset. If you think anything I said is wrong or unjust maybe explain why? I'm not the oracle who knows everything I just play mara in 6v6 organized group, 12man warbands and pug warbands and thought it was kinda weird why I don't have certain things that the majority of everyone else has. I even pointed out the classes that are similar or have issues and proposed changes for them.

Anyway that's all thanks for the read. If you are confused with what "move to core" means it just means that the class learns the ability leveling up rather than specing and spending points. For marauder the movement to core would probably replace Tainted Claw as most of my suggestions move it to a 5-9point ability that can be speced into.

TLDR: White Lions and Maras should get some inc 9point heal debuffs or something of the sort. Explanation above.

*You don't have to rework Full Grown but I don't know many people that actually go 11 points into axeman to grab it. So if it is changed into something desirable in the future would be cool, like on demand KD or a Knockback so white lions can single out people and pounce to em and kill em or something diverse and fun, just throwing **** out there.
Last edited by Stophy22 on Tue May 12, 2020 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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wildwindblows
Posts: 170

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#2 » Sun May 10, 2020 6:55 pm

I think players think which tactics and skills should be picked. If WL's heal db will moved to point 5, each wl pick that tactic and this class has already one of the best brust capability so it sounds too much. Same words for marauders. Mara is waste skill point and oen tactic slot to get 50% heal debuff and this is too much.
Marauders are tankier as while lions because they use medium armor. Deadly clutch is good tactic to reduce %50 inc. heal to victim and give %50 heal to mara however when mara gets heal db it drops to 25% so dc healling power is too low. Morever, marauder still hits lower than wl and msw.

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Stophy22
Posts: 336

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#3 » Sun May 10, 2020 7:03 pm

wildwindblows wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 6:55 pm
I think players think which tactics and skills should be picked. If WL's heal db will moved to point 5, each wl pick that tactic and this class has already one of the best brust capability so it sounds too much. Same words for marauders. And marauders are tankier as while lions because they use medium armor. Deadly clutch is good tactic to reduce %50 inc. heal to victim and give %50 heal to mara however when mara gets heal db it drops to 25% so dc healling power is too low. Morever, marauder still hits lower than wl and msw.

I proposed 3 things because I knew people would have differences. They are alternatives, not change everything. It's silly to have to use a tactic slot on an mdps to achieve heal-debuff so that is where the inital thought comes from.

Yes White lions have high burst but that has nothing to do with their lack of a heal debuff as an Mdps archetype.

Reduce healing from victim and give it to yourself is borderline useless in a 6v6 environment, since you'll have someone healing you. The intial marauder heal debuff was a 75% reduce tactic but that's a bit overkill for RoR. In its current state its pretty subpar so I proposed the changes above. Mara does hit lower than aSw and Wl which is why they shouldn't have to spec 11 points to use a tactic. Also if you change mara, you should change whitelion. It's basic balance. Shouldn't change slayer without changing choppa. But diversity should be kept
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nat3s
Posts: 251

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#4 » Sun May 10, 2020 7:44 pm

Worth adding Mara heal debuff is only 25%, you need to add a tactic to make it 50%
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Stophy22
Posts: 336

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#5 » Sun May 10, 2020 8:15 pm

nat3s wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 7:44 pm
Worth adding Mara heal debuff is only 25%, you need to add a tactic to make it 50%
I think I covered this extensively. Actually what the entire post is about haha
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wachlarz
Posts: 416

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#6 » Sun May 10, 2020 8:48 pm

Any1 know Nick of mara that play sava/brut and win with good Wl ? Am not. Any order know? Wl decide when he attack not mara. Jump>stun>burst and end of mara. If not, run away and wait for end of cd. Mara dont have mobility and single target stun. Remove pounce for 1 week from Wl and U will see what happens in forum. Why wl asw have stun and gap closer and mara dont any good reason ?

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adamthelc
Posts: 827

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#7 » Sun May 10, 2020 8:53 pm

Draining swipe core, Mutated aggressor 5 point savagery, tainted claw 9 pt brutality, make tainted claw 50% and then make tainted claw usable in brutality or savegery & brutality.

I dont think you need to change any other class. Marauders will no longer have a core 25% INC HD, but will have a 50% INC HD they don't have to waste a tactic slot on. So that's the tradeoff.

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Stophy22
Posts: 336

Re: Mara Proposal

Post#8 » Sun May 10, 2020 9:37 pm

wachlarz wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 8:48 pm
Any1 know Nick of mara that play sava/brut and win with good Wl ? Am not. Any order know? Wl decide when he attack not mara. Jump>stun>burst and end of mara. If not, run away and wait for end of cd. Mara dont have mobility and single target stun. Remove pounce for 1 week from Wl and U will see what happens in forum. Why wl asw have stun and gap closer and mara dont any good reason ?
That has nothing to do with this post man
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Stophy22
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Re: Mara Proposal

Post#9 » Sun May 10, 2020 9:38 pm

adamthelc wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 8:53 pm
Draining swipe core, Mutated aggressor 5 point savagery, tainted claw 9 pt brutality, make tainted claw 50% and then make tainted claw usable in brutality or savegery & brutality.

I dont think you need to change any other class. Marauders will no longer have a core 25% INC HD, but will have a 50% INC HD they don't have to waste a tactic slot on. So that's the tradeoff.
I think that was one of my suggestions, Move draining swipe to core and 9 point tained. I like the ability to use tainted in brutality too, I still in the interest of fairness you should change something for WL but I'm glad to see you agree! :)
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adamthelc
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Re: Mara Proposal

Post#10 » Sun May 10, 2020 10:06 pm

Stophy22 wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 9:38 pm
adamthelc wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 8:53 pm
Draining swipe core, Mutated aggressor 5 point savagery, tainted claw 9 pt brutality, make tainted claw 50% and then make tainted claw usable in brutality or savegery & brutality.

I dont think you need to change any other class. Marauders will no longer have a core 25% INC HD, but will have a 50% INC HD they don't have to waste a tactic slot on. So that's the tradeoff.
I think that was one of my suggestions, Move draining swipe to core and 9 point tained. I like the ability to use tainted in brutality too, I still in the interest of fairness you should change something for WL but I'm glad to see you agree! :)
No other dps needs to waste a tactic on a HD. Some tanks and healers do. I think its just bad design. If you want to even something out you could make the KoTBS HD aura incoming.

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