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Bane Shield (less-so Discordant Fluctuation)

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Tarantoga
Posts: 50

Re: Bane Shield (less-so Discordant Fluctuation)

Post#91 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:29 pm

yep, lets hear the people when it would be the exact same just orderwhise.... how can you rly defend this ability at the state its at the moment? (just another bug fix which dont fit into the "balancing" like the wh/we bug fix happened.

i rly hate to do the order/destro fanboi but it gets silly so much

not only the chat gets flooded atm by as example "xrealmer" posts but you cant to nothing without seeing guys who report people for all sort of things...
Last edited by Tarantoga on Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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CeeJay89
Posts: 139

Re: Bane Shield (less-so Discordant Fluctuation)

Post#92 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:32 pm

ghojinn wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:25 pm
Bane shield isn't overpowered 10 seconds learn to switch targets they fixed it so it worked,but i guess all you are going to hear is the bad players complaining.
17 seconds, actually. Dire Shielding is the real issue.

SaintRon
Posts: 44

Re: Bane Shield (less-so Discordant Fluctuation)

Post#93 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:43 pm

Are you getting hit my multiple chosen in this pic? Seems like it... just want to make sure... because multiple chosen stopping you from AOEing seems perfectly fine.

Honestly AOE damage is pretty much out of control during any large scale fight.

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CeeJay89
Posts: 139

Re: Bane Shield (less-so Discordant Fluctuation)

Post#94 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:45 pm

SaintRon wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:43 pm
Are you getting hit my multiple chosen in this pic? Seems like it... just want to make sure... because multiple chosen stopping you from AOEing seems perfectly fine.

Honestly AOE damage is pretty much out of control during any large scale fight.
It has been addressed multiple times throughout this thread. Please view the 2nd post in the entire thread. That's a single Chosen.

SaintRon
Posts: 44

Re: Bane Shield (less-so Discordant Fluctuation)

Post#95 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:06 am

CeeJay89 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:45 pm
SaintRon wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:43 pm
Are you getting hit my multiple chosen in this pic? Seems like it... just want to make sure... because multiple chosen stopping you from AOEing seems perfectly fine.

Honestly AOE damage is pretty much out of control during any large scale fight.
It has been addressed multiple times throughout this thread. Please view the 2nd post in the entire thread. That's a single Chosen.
I dunno man, I don't think anyone who isn't biased is going to side with you here. I can't speak for every player, but I thought the consensus was that BW > a lot of classes in terms of the "meta". A working counter is probably a good thing.

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adamthelc
Posts: 827

Re: Bane Shield (less-so Discordant Fluctuation)

Post#96 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:20 am

CeeJay89 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:20 pm
Detangler wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:52 pm
Spoiler:
adamthelc wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:35 pm


It sounds like they have already decided what tweak they are going to make. Instead of just viewing the high thorn damage as a byproduct of the AoE cap that makes BW so strong, they are going to arbitrarily decide which abilities have a 24 cap and which have less.

Mindlessly spamming Rain of Fire = ok. Mindlessly using Bane Shield = not ok. Since that would interfere with the BW Rain of Fire spam and they wouldn't be able to use funnel power to hurt themselves for more obscene damage. Bane Shield needs to be low impact enough so people can continue to spam AoE and essentially ignore it.

Kind of a smart ass comment, but it seems like only one side of whats really happening is being taken into consideration.

And I am only bringing up BWs because that was what was presented in the OP. Sorcs and Magus do they same thing as BWs, they just aren't as good at it.

I'm not saying they need to lower the AoE cap, but this seems like a situation where they are nerfing somethings AoE cap to protect the ability of other classes to exploit the AoE cap. Which to me is a little goofy.
Bright wizards also don't wear heavy armor, hence the diffentiation between the two. Reflecting back up to 600 damage a second in extreme situations on a tank isn't super strong. Reflecting back up to 2400 damage a second in extreme situations is a bit too much. This also doesn't mean that other chosens combined can't total up more dire shield procs to similar amounts.

But don't worry, the irony isn't lost on many people that engineers and BWs are complaining in this thread about the "dumb fire and forget" buff of dire shielding while in the same breath complaining that their fire and forget damage abilities aren't able to endlessly spam damage on keep funnels anymore.


Let's not kid ourselves and act like Magus and Sorc can't do the exact same thing. I suppose to Destro, Tzeentch's Firestorm, Pit of Shade, and Dissolving Mist don't exist when talking about Engineer or BW. While we're at it, let's neglect interactions of abilities like Glean Magic with Pit of Shade. But don't worry, while we don't vocalize it often, the irony isn't lost to us that you'd forget what abilities your realm has in the name of preserving your one button wonders.

Also, stop passing around misinformation about my screenshots. I'll update you, since 2 posts in must be difficult to read to. There's ONE Chosen doing over 3.5k damage in 3s with Bane shield alone. Not 2, 3, 4, 5, or so many like you claim. ONE. This thread was initially a complaint about Discordant Fluctuation AND Bane Shield, to which I observed Bane Shield being the issue, not Discordant Fluctuation.

I don't give a hot **** whether they nerf the AoE cap or not. But let's not pretend like it's okay for one realm to have anti AoE built into one bullshit skill and not the other. Hell, mirror it on Knight and I'll happily play mine and wait for the Destro "Shield of the Sun OP" whine threads that will inevitably show up due to ignorance of their own realm's abilities.

I'm content with Dire Shield being limited to groups. If Destro can achieve the same affect with proper organization, good on them. Glad the non-bias Destro can see that (to which I know you're advocating, dispute everything else).
How much damage did you do in those 3 seconds? I'm sure a BW could do 3.5k single target damage in 3 seconds if they wanted to, but why would you when you can get far more value from AoE?

You are right magus, sorc and engineer can all also do good AoE damage. And destro can even debuff the magic type of PoS. They don't get increased radii, wild fire and funnel power though. The fact that you have the increased size on RoF makes it more likely that you will hit the target cap and be effected the most by the damage shield.

No one here designed the bane shield tactic. Its a fair argument to ask why destro has it an order doesn't, but you could make that argument about a lot of things. I want a larger Pit of Shades to make sure I hit 24 people.

Lots of people agree bane shield is overperforming. You sir are annoying because you act ignorant to the fact that BWs are the most oppressive class in funnels and forts. Have you played a destro mdps in a fort without good heals and a guard?

Bane shield is probably going to go the way of the dodo. Which is a shame because there are already so many lackluster tactics in the game. If damage shields are deemed to be to strong they should just redesign the tactic all together. Maybe 5% crit for your group on block?

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Detangler
Posts: 398

Re: Bane Shield (less-so Discordant Fluctuation)

Post#97 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:48 am

CeeJay89 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:20 pm
Detangler wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:52 pm
Spoiler:
adamthelc wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:35 pm


It sounds like they have already decided what tweak they are going to make. Instead of just viewing the high thorn damage as a byproduct of the AoE cap that makes BW so strong, they are going to arbitrarily decide which abilities have a 24 cap and which have less.

Mindlessly spamming Rain of Fire = ok. Mindlessly using Bane Shield = not ok. Since that would interfere with the BW Rain of Fire spam and they wouldn't be able to use funnel power to hurt themselves for more obscene damage. Bane Shield needs to be low impact enough so people can continue to spam AoE and essentially ignore it.

Kind of a smart ass comment, but it seems like only one side of whats really happening is being taken into consideration.

And I am only bringing up BWs because that was what was presented in the OP. Sorcs and Magus do they same thing as BWs, they just aren't as good at it.

I'm not saying they need to lower the AoE cap, but this seems like a situation where they are nerfing somethings AoE cap to protect the ability of other classes to exploit the AoE cap. Which to me is a little goofy.
Bright wizards also don't wear heavy armor, hence the diffentiation between the two. Reflecting back up to 600 damage a second in extreme situations on a tank isn't super strong. Reflecting back up to 2400 damage a second in extreme situations is a bit too much. This also doesn't mean that other chosens combined can't total up more dire shield procs to similar amounts.

But don't worry, the irony isn't lost on many people that engineers and BWs are complaining in this thread about the "dumb fire and forget" buff of dire shielding while in the same breath complaining that their fire and forget damage abilities aren't able to endlessly spam damage on keep funnels anymore.


Let's not kid ourselves and act like Magus and Sorc can't do the exact same thing. I suppose to Destro, Tzeentch's Firestorm, Pit of Shade, and Dissolving Mist don't exist when talking about Engineer or BW. While we're at it, let's neglect interactions of abilities like Glean Magic with Pit of Shade. But don't worry, while we don't vocalize it often, the irony isn't lost to us that you'd forget what abilities your realm has in the name of preserving your one button wonders.

Also, stop passing around misinformation about my screenshots. I'll update you, since 2 posts in must be difficult to read to. There's ONE Chosen doing over 3.5k damage in 3s with Bane shield alone. Not 2, 3, 4, 5, or so many like you claim. ONE. This thread was initially a complaint about Discordant Fluctuation AND Bane Shield, to which I observed Bane Shield being the issue, not Discordant Fluctuation.

I don't give a hot **** whether they nerf the AoE cap or not. But let's not pretend like it's okay for one realm to have anti AoE built into one bullshit skill and not the other. Hell, mirror it on Knight and I'll happily play mine and wait for the Destro "Shield of the Sun OP" whine threads that will inevitably show up due to ignorance of their own realm's abilities.

I'm content with Dire Shield being limited to groups. If Destro can achieve the same affect with proper organization, good on them. Glad the non-bias Destro can see that (to which I know you're advocating, dispute everything else).
Yes, you are right, there are lots of things that, when combined, are powerful. Both sides have it, thanks for bringing up some examples. My point was one person complaining about a fire and forget ability while also talking about using their fire and forget ability. its... funny to me?

And my earlier post was breaking down your first post, which is what you started this thread with. If i am somehow wrong in my breakdown of your first screenshot, please list out the names or recheck my math for me. Maybe cop less attitude and anger towards me, and try more civil discussion, please?

And its not ok for dire shielding to proc that many times from one person. I have argued that throughout this thread, posted a screenshot on discord to show how its quite possible for it to proc on people outside the chosen's group despite dev statements that say otherwise, and continously tried to point out to people that this is not the stated intention of the ability per dev responses.

If for some reason you still think I only want to preserve my one button wonder ability for my side only, go back and read through my most recent posts in this thread and others. click on my name, and read through my posts, please. i actually think there should be anti-aoe abilities like this in place on both sides, and have advocated for this. I would not say it should be to this extent, as it is nuts for a single tank class to blast people for 1000+ damage a second while being free to do anything else in the mean time.

I will restate my own post from earlier:

"Again, when Dire Shielding gets fixed to be group members only (Per Wargrimnir's earlier post in this thread), you will never see 6 ticks from a single Chosen in keep funnels, because what kind of idiot healer stands in the middle of the funnel? One that will die soon, along with his entire team.

The sky is not falling."
Detangler - 40 DoK armor talisman farmer
Deetangler - 40/82 Chosen tankbot/murdermachine
Deeetangler - 40/6x Zealot healbot/talisman factory
Detanglerr - 40/xx Witch Elf boredom killer
Deetsquiggy - 40/x Squig butcherbot
Tanglers - baby Swordmaster

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CeeJay89
Posts: 139

Re: Bane Shield (less-so Discordant Fluctuation)

Post#98 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:38 am

Detangler wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:48 am
Spoiler:
CeeJay89 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:20 pm
Detangler wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:52 pm
Spoiler:


Bright wizards also don't wear heavy armor, hence the diffentiation between the two. Reflecting back up to 600 damage a second in extreme situations on a tank isn't super strong. Reflecting back up to 2400 damage a second in extreme situations is a bit too much. This also doesn't mean that other chosens combined can't total up more dire shield procs to similar amounts.

But don't worry, the irony isn't lost on many people that engineers and BWs are complaining in this thread about the "dumb fire and forget" buff of dire shielding while in the same breath complaining that their fire and forget damage abilities aren't able to endlessly spam damage on keep funnels anymore.


Let's not kid ourselves and act like Magus and Sorc can't do the exact same thing. I suppose to Destro, Tzeentch's Firestorm, Pit of Shade, and Dissolving Mist don't exist when talking about Engineer or BW. While we're at it, let's neglect interactions of abilities like Glean Magic with Pit of Shade. But don't worry, while we don't vocalize it often, the irony isn't lost to us that you'd forget what abilities your realm has in the name of preserving your one button wonders.

Also, stop passing around misinformation about my screenshots. I'll update you, since 2 posts in must be difficult to read to. There's ONE Chosen doing over 3.5k damage in 3s with Bane shield alone. Not 2, 3, 4, 5, or so many like you claim. ONE. This thread was initially a complaint about Discordant Fluctuation AND Bane Shield, to which I observed Bane Shield being the issue, not Discordant Fluctuation.

I don't give a hot **** whether they nerf the AoE cap or not. But let's not pretend like it's okay for one realm to have anti AoE built into one bullshit skill and not the other. Hell, mirror it on Knight and I'll happily play mine and wait for the Destro "Shield of the Sun OP" whine threads that will inevitably show up due to ignorance of their own realm's abilities.

I'm content with Dire Shield being limited to groups. If Destro can achieve the same affect with proper organization, good on them. Glad the non-bias Destro can see that (to which I know you're advocating, dispute everything else).
Yes, you are right, there are lots of things that, when combined, are powerful. Both sides have it, thanks for bringing up some examples. My point was one person complaining about a fire and forget ability while also talking about using their fire and forget ability. its... funny to me?

And my earlier post was breaking down your first post, which is what you started this thread with. If i am somehow wrong in my breakdown of your first screenshot, please list out the names or recheck my math for me. Maybe cop less attitude and anger towards me, and try more civil discussion, please?

And its not ok for dire shielding to proc that many times from one person. I have argued that throughout this thread, posted a screenshot on discord to show how its quite possible for it to proc on people outside the chosen's group despite dev statements that say otherwise, and continously tried to point out to people that this is not the stated intention of the ability per dev responses.

If for some reason you still think I only want to preserve my one button wonder ability for my side only, go back and read through my most recent posts in this thread and others. click on my name, and read through my posts, please. i actually think there should be anti-aoe abilities like this in place on both sides, and have advocated for this. I would not say it should be to this extent, as it is nuts for a single tank class to blast people for 1000+ damage a second while being free to do anything else in the mean time.

I will restate my own post from earlier:

"Again, when Dire Shielding gets fixed to be group members only (Per Wargrimnir's earlier post in this thread), you will never see 6 ticks from a single Chosen in keep funnels, because what kind of idiot healer stands in the middle of the funnel? One that will die soon, along with his entire team.

The sky is not falling."


Fair. As for the first screenshot, yes, there are multiple Chosen, and the thread started initially as a combination of two skills. However, after I posted the 2nd screenshot with one Chosen and continued to observe, I found it was Bane Shield (Dire Shielding) that was an issue, hence the change in title. I also was not aware it worked on all allies until Wargrimnir chimed in.

I am fine with a powerful, well-coordinated ability. However, an ability that you just use in the middle of a zerg and pop one person doing what they should be doing isn't. I think we're arguing the same thing in that regard.

My issue was you stating in a previous reply that I was misrepresenting the ability and what was happening, which I wasn't, which can be seen in said 2nd screenshot.

As for "fire and forget", I disagree. A 9s/10s channel is not a fire and forget. You... can't do anything else while you do it? Maybe it should be called fire and sit? The only fire and forget ability mentioned in all of this besides Bane Shield is Napalm Grenade/Dissolving Mist.

I also disagree that a class should be punished for properly positioning an AoE to hit the most targets. Seems silly to tell people they should be aware of how many people they're hitting with abilities designed to hit as many people as possible. If the complaint is 24 target cap, that's an entirely different issue that's not exclusive to any one class. But no class should be punished for a properly positioned AoE.

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Detangler
Posts: 398

Re: Bane Shield (less-so Discordant Fluctuation)

Post#99 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:51 am

channel abilities aren't fire and forget. i'm not a BW/sorc expert, but napalm/dissolving mist are the fire and forget abilities i was referring to. they do waaaaaay more damage than a zerg popping dire shielding damage reflect.

Your second screenie, yeah, perfect example of the ability overperforming in its current state. its silly to argue anything else.

properly positioned or not, funnel fights get old fast due to the aoe damage when the defenders reach a critical mass that no one can survive. there should be something to counter that on both sides, and it seems like this ability, when tuned properly, is a step in the right direction.
Detangler - 40 DoK armor talisman farmer
Deetangler - 40/82 Chosen tankbot/murdermachine
Deeetangler - 40/6x Zealot healbot/talisman factory
Detanglerr - 40/xx Witch Elf boredom killer
Deetsquiggy - 40/x Squig butcherbot
Tanglers - baby Swordmaster

Dteekay
Posts: 17

Re: Bane Shield (less-so Discordant Fluctuation)

Post#100 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:52 am

If Chosen is supposed to "mirror" KOBS, why is KOBS shield of the sun still only castable for yourself? Lets give KOBS a tactic to mimic baneshield and see If that will bring balance?

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