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[Shadow Warrior] - Ranged Proposal

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Arthem
Posts: 143

Re: [Shadow Warrior] - Ranged Proposal

Post#51 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:03 am

Oh yeah I think our armor debuff should be higher or on a shorter cast time. Obviously not both.
<Obliteration> Arthem 84SW | Aryastarkk 80WL
<Exo> Dourn 81Sorc | Vesr 81Dok

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NSKaneda
Posts: 384

Re: [Shadow Warrior] - Ranged Proposal

Post#52 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:00 am

Stance dancing and acid arrow:
start with long range stance, apply armour debuff, heal debuff, ini debuff, dots or slow down
switch to mid range, dots (+ slow down and kite) or burst
now enemy is in short range, assault stance, disarm, armour debuff, whirling, burst or finish in melee.

There ;)

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Acid arrow / What blocka? - what if, stay with me, what if it was percentage of armour? Not flat number but for example 25% of all the armour of a target? There wouldn't be a problem with scaling on different lvls then.
RoR: Burszui SH, Ropopuch SHM, Laiste MAG || Ginnar IB, Volundr ENG ++ REV guild ++
Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn (Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG - Ithilmar's Chosen)
* * * playing 19 classes - running out of char slots * * *

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Darks63
Posts: 541

Re: [Shadow Warrior] - Ranged Proposal

Post#53 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:41 am

Arthem wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:53 am
Darks63 wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:52 pm
Manatikik wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:26 pm


Swapping to Scout only locks you out of Skirmish for 1 GCD which you can use to (re)apply BHA/SS/Takedown or add on with a Flame Arrow; most people are just bad with managing their stance dancing and thats why they think the mechanic is worse than it actually is.
The whole issue with SW stance dancing is that it doesn't really synergize well like mara stance dancing. For maras every stance has a use for a given situation. With SW i cant think of much of a use for scout since all the most useful/situational tools are mostly in skrim and assault.
Scout is for range bursting, assault is for surviving against melee or range squig, skirmish is for kiting.
The main trouble with scout is it is a stand still stance in a mobile game in either Assault of skrim you can keep up with the pushes and restreats easily. In scout you find yourself maybe attacking a few times before your having to move up or back reseting whenever progres you were making vs w/e target you were engaging. To me if i wanted to go that road Rifle engie is just so much more superior imo.
Tourist SW 40/50+<Zaxxed> Discotec 40/40+<IRONIC>

Former Pragg/Badlands Destro Iron Rock/Badlands Order player.

SaintRon
Posts: 44

Re: [Shadow Warrior] - Ranged Proposal

Post#54 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:19 am

Manatikik wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:32 pm
I guess i'll just go through these 1 by 1 and kinda tell you why you're wrong.

Powerful Draw - No.. There is no reason to just buff a third of the skills by 50% range AND give a 25% bonus armor pen to your bread and butter skill.

Split Arrows - this tactic is awful and any rank 40 SW that takes it should feel ashamed. This is for leveling toons and what not. You want to double dip in making SFA better into AoE which is just dumb.

Smoldering Arrow - Pretty useless tactic, the idea behind giving FA more oomf is fine but not in conjunction with your later points

Scout Stance - Initiative is a super valuable stat and removing it for WS is just silly since realistically in a proper scout rotation FA is your main source of damage AND you can already stack WS harder than most classes due to what is essentially an added 360 BS with Scout + Tactics. The only change to Scout Stance that is needed is to readdress the range of Flame Arrow to mirror Exlpodin' Arrer at 100 ft range (which is logical for Scout) and potentially look at a change to BHA/SS to 100 or 85 ft base in Scout , though this one is controversial and more impactful.

Skirmish - Wow what an overpowered thought process... No, you shouldnt just get a free 50% range increase.

Rain of Steel - It is bad but so are a lot of morale 4's. There is no need to try and mirror Lots of Shootin' from SH especially when Order revolves heavily around M2 drops.

Hail of Doom - HoD is meh but its a fine Baseline for pRDPS; increasing its range has huge implications on Fort defenses.

Steady Aim/Hunter's Fervor - Steady Aim is traditionally a waste of AP now that Festerbomb's aren't a thing - but it synergizes extremely well with Expertise in letting you Festerbomb/EE spam very well. Hunter's fervor definitely affects you but it works that it increases the interval rate of your ap regen not the regen number (so you have to not use skill for it to actually increase your ap regen). Why would you ever take 25% crit over 25% damage one a class without a crit damage multiplier (in ranged)? This alone is just ridiculous. And in organized play you increasing Crit for a group just doesn't cut it anymore; on Live it worked because of the multiple crit stacking and you still had Outrider Patrol to add to a morale bomb.

Acid Arrow - it should not be castable on the move or in Skirmish. Ranged SW is all about Stance Dancing not choosing a Stance and sitting in it. The only issue with Acid Arrow is that the armor value is too low of a base.

WP - giving it a snare break component is crazy... WP is for positioning not a get out of jail free card. The delay could be reduced but thats the only tweak it needs right now after the huge buff it got a couple years ago.

Flame Arrow - Yikes... Terrible idea. You want a ranged, aoe, no cd, attack that bypasses defenses?

Eagle Eye - The only buff eagle eye needs is the over due pms modifier that all sw/sh need to compensate for the UF removal inb 2017.

These are some awful ideas man. You should really re-examine how you approach SW and it might increase your success rate already without any changes being made.
So you basically came off like a jerk here and a lot of your thoughts are really just opinions. It's okay to have said opinions, but you really need to cool it with the attitude.

mrbutcher
Posts: 8

Re: [Shadow Warrior] - Ranged Proposal

Post#55 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:15 am

nice post but they nurfed sw in to the ground and i do not think that will change
Last edited by mrbutcher on Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

VanHime
Posts: 3

Re: [Shadow Warrior] - Ranged Proposal

Post#56 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:37 pm

I think they should remove knockdown from eye shot so we can use our initiative debuff without giving a free immunity, especially since alot of people run anti crit now and if possible just create a new skill for the knockdown.

Arthem
Posts: 143

Re: [Shadow Warrior] - Ranged Proposal

Post#57 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:45 am

Generally speaking when it comes to range there's not a good reason to play one over BW. You play with 3 tactics just in order to play at range. You could give SW 5 tactics tbh and would still do worse dmg than BW. I don't think anyone wants BW level of dmg but there should be some other reasons to bring SW instead. Spammable heal debuff meme doesn't cut it.

Mythic really screwed up in designing SW's. They have Shadow in their name but dont have any form of mislead, stealth or ambush etc. They're really just high elf archers with the worst range and dmg of RDPS on order. This was the case even before ROR went live and they received nerfs after. There's a good opportunity for ROR to show Mythic up and do something good for the elves! :D
<Obliteration> Arthem 84SW | Aryastarkk 80WL
<Exo> Dourn 81Sorc | Vesr 81Dok

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saupreusse
Former Staff
Posts: 2091

Re: [Shadow Warrior] - Ranged Proposal

Post#58 » Sat May 09, 2020 2:51 pm

So as promised I have updated the Main post. I removed some of the stuff that has been fixed already (like flight times) and took a lot of your feedback into account. I also tried not to forget Ranged squig this time. I tried to keep it a lot simpler this time without going too crazy with ideas. Id like to see small changes at first now that already may or may not have a big impact on the viability of the ranged specs. :)

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NSKaneda
Posts: 384

Re: [Shadow Warrior] - Ranged Proposal

Post#59 » Sat May 09, 2020 3:27 pm

saupreusse wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 2:51 pm
So as promised I have updated the Main post. I removed some of the stuff that has been fixed already (like flight times) and took a lot of your feedback into account. I also tried not to forget Ranged squig this time. I tried to keep it a lot simpler this time without going too crazy with ideas. Id like to see small changes at first now that already may or may not have a big impact on the viability of the ranged specs. :)
I like your proposed changes to morales. Basic m4 being stronger than all speccable m4s is just not right :)

Scout Stance/Gas Squig - Set the Range of Yer Bleeding/Broadhead Arrow and Shadow Sting/Rotten Arrer to 100ft when you are in Scout stance or have a Gas Squig active. It's completely annoying that I can't use these two very important abilities on my full range when i am scout SW or Big Shooting SH.
Yer Bleeding combined with Shootin wiff da wind and gas squig gives you max range on a skill from Quick Shootin' tree. If you're using Big Shootin' over QS that's your choice. If the proposed change passes my question is: will the range on all QS skills be further extended?
Same thing applies to rotten arrer (again, quick shootin' tree, not BS).

Split Arrows/Splintering Arrers - Remove the damage penalty to give it more AOE dmg. As it stands, SFAs and RnSs tooltip values are already not great, further reducing its dmg output and pressure makes no sense at all, and renders the tactic completely useless. I would rather see a max players hit cap being installed.
Removing this tactic would seriously gimp my playstyle. I'd like to have a choice between going aoe and single target and there are a lot of moments when using aoe is not a good choice on rSH...
Using RnS with the tactic serves as a filler in shortened close range aoe rotation when you debuff, use Shoot thru ya, apply heal debuff and if your range is not enough to spam STY you'd use aoe RnS. Increasing AOE cap to 24... Sure, why not, seems to go with server's policy.
And with close quarters build you can spam RnS as fast as you can hit that button.. Hence dmg decrease on tactic.

Steady Aim /Hunters Fervor - Steady Aim is a bad ability - period. Hunters Fervor isn't bad in itself, but is it worth disrupting your dmg spam and wasting a global cooldown on a 20% ap increase? I think not. So my suggestion is to remove both abilities all together and incorporate their effects in VoN:
Make VoN increase your crit chance by 15% on all bow abilities on top of the +25% dmg bonus it already has, and increase your party members AP regen by 20% for its duration. Toss the buildup time penalty of steady aim in the trash completely (bye bye). I would also suggest to increase your party members chance to crit by 7% (in the comments it was suggested to increase this value to 7% to bring it back on par with the old leading shots tactic) while VoN is active. This may sound like a huge buff but let me explain the idea behind it: SW used to have leading shots tactic which increased your party members chance to crit by 15% whenever you critically hit. The Tactic was nerfed hard down to 8%. With my proposed changes to VoN, Steady Aim, and Hunters fervor, RSW will give the party a big buff and awesome pushing utility and increase its own dmg pressure all in one global cooldown instead of wasting 3 global cooldowns on 3 different abilities of which 2 are lackluster on its own. It's an attempt to cache the nerf of leading shots.
Using steady aim (cooldown increase) with fester bomb build (cooldown decrease in short range) made this skill useful for added crit chance. Same as VoN and HF. I'd leave those as they are, it's a build thing.
Same on ST burst rotation: using all three self buffs right before full dmg rotation gives you big increase to burst and forces you to relocate / look for new target.

Acid Arrow/What Blocka - Make it castable on the move for both SH and SW and change its really mediocre armor debuff value to a flat 35% armor debuff.
I'd say either cast on the move or flat percentage value. Having both seem a little OP to me.

Fill the now empty 13pt slot with a new ability That works similar to ASW's shadow step just the other way round: You merge with the shadows and appear on your friendly target in the blink of an eye. 20 sec cooldown, 65ft range. I always though Shadow Warrior should have more shadowy abilities and this one could make SW a really annoying trickster/kiter.
You have forgotten about squig herdas ;) Shadow step to friendly target sounds cool, I'd limit it to party members though. Just to keep realm balance and retain high usability of this proposition.


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My proposition: make Shoot thru ya/Liliath effective CD decrease range 40ft instead of 20. Animation still bugs out on point blank and with server latency in big fights this would make it more lag-friendly.
RoR: Burszui SH, Ropopuch SHM, Laiste MAG || Ginnar IB, Volundr ENG ++ REV guild ++
Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn (Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG - Ithilmar's Chosen)
* * * playing 19 classes - running out of char slots * * *

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saupreusse
Former Staff
Posts: 2091

Re: [Shadow Warrior] - Ranged Proposal

Post#60 » Sat May 09, 2020 5:02 pm

Removing this tactic would seriously gimp my playstyle. I'd like to have a choice between going aoe and single target and there are a lot of moments when using aoe is not a good choice on rSH...
Using RnS with the tactic serves as a filler in shortened close range aoe rotation when you debuff, use Shoot thru ya, apply heal debuff and if your range is not enough to spam STY you'd use aoe RnS. Increasing AOE cap to 24... Sure, why not, seems to go with server's policy.
And with close quarters build you can spam RnS as fast as you can hit that button.. Hence dmg decrease on tactic.

I dont want to remove it. read again :)

Using steady aim (cooldown increase) with fester bomb build (cooldown decrease in short range) made this skill useful for added crit chance. Same as VoN and HF. I'd leave those as they are, it's a build thing. Same on ST burst rotation: using all three self buffs right before full dmg rotation gives you big increase to burst and forces you to relocate / look for new target.
it had some uses. like for example applying all dots + armor debuff and then use steady aim + rapid fire. or as you said, fester bomb. I find the first situation is really not worth it most of the time and only works against solo targets that are running away. If my proposal is nerfing fester bomb too much there could simply be a chance to crit increaser be added to festerbomb.

I'd say either cast on the move or flat percentage value. Having both seem a little OP to me.
It might, It might not. Im just gonna show you that 35% armor debuff isnt as strong as it sounds in the beginning. much less so against targets that naturally have low armor.
example:
2000armor * 0.35 = 700armor debuff
2500armor * 0.35 = 875armor debuff
3000armor * 0.35 = 1050armor debuff
3500armor * 0.35 = 1225armor debuff
4000armor * 0.35 = 1400armor debuff

As you see, against already squishy targets (around 2500armor) the armor debuff wont really be buffed by a lot. above 3000armor is where it really starts to hurt. would give sw and sh more burst against armor stacking targets and not rely on a wl/mara to debuff so much. If its castable on the move doesnt really matter that much. but having access to it in skirmish stance does and I very much disagree with stance dancing when all it is doing is locking you out of your skirm rotation.

You have forgotten about squig herdas ;) Shadow step to friendly target sounds cool, I'd limit it to party members though. Just to keep realm balance and retain high usability of this proposition.sry mate but squiggy has all slots in path of squig shooting already in use :( . also squigs cool ability in there is run away which is also found a lot further down than the new ability i introduced... so i guess its just fair :^)

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