Balancing cooldown decreasers

[teiloh]

I'm happy to see this in the Tank Morale Overhaul thread and wanted to follow up:

One of the concerns we noted for Black Orc is that the right tree is simply too good with the addition of the Mor' Choppin' Dem tactic that gives WAAAAGH! a cooldown decreaser. This was swapped with No Choppin' Me which is now a Core tactic that causes the Follow 'me Lead's Weaponskill buff to apply to nearby groupmates. It was a reasonable change at the time to add something much better high into the tree, although it does impose significantly on the Chop Fasta' skill which has a worse cooldown. This is overdue for adjustment, but it's not a factor we are going to address when it comes to balancing the Morales themselves. So, with that being acknowledged, we can continue under the pretense that we're comparing the spec M4's against the Core M4 players use by default.

Right now, both Destro CD reducers are effectively use on demand, whereas a Swordmaster must:

1. Get into position. This can take you away from several group member who need the buff on inc.
2. Find a target where a Silence would be appropriate (i.e. no free immunities or badly timed CC)
3. Land a hit. It's easy to "call out" a Chop Fasta at the start of engagement. Not really possible with WW. This means you lose the opening 3-10 seconds (or more) where your group might not have a CD increaser.
4. vs. Chop Fasta, consume one or two more GCDs

A long time ago Whispering Winds was a rare advantage Order had, but with the release of the Choppa class this was turned on its head. Even with the more balanced 20/60s uptime on Chop Fasta, Destro had a decided advantage here for the reasons listed above, not to mention that Swordmasters are much less stackable, popular and well-performing as the two Orcs.

Suggestion:

1. Replace Mor' Choppin' Dem as seems to be planned

2. Make Whispering Winds more usable. I'll revive an old suggestion on a BiowareMythic thread - make Whispering Winds a single target, 20 foot range, 25% heal debuff/steal that also triggers the CD reduction. This will help SMs open with their CD reducer much more reliably.

3. Chop Fasta. IMO, this should be set back to a 20/60 reuse, or be made into an attack that triggers the effect like WW, 10/20s uptime.

[Foofmonger]

I think Chop Fasta/WW parity would be the best option. Literally mirroring these abilities in terms of effect, cd, duration, and how they are activated would probably be best. Due to the clunkiness of WW, I'd suggest just making WW function like Chop Fast does.

Are cooldown increases currently balanced on this server? I'm just not aware of all the nuance currently.

[teiloh]

I think Chop Fasta/WW parity would be the best option. Literally mirroring these abilities in terms of effect, cd, duration, and how they are activated would probably be best. Due to the clunkiness of WW, I'd suggest just making WW function like Chop Fast does.

Are cooldown increases currently balanced on this server? I'm just not aware of all the nuance currently.

They are not. A SH has a 40ft cone on a class with the best mobility in the game by several leagues (and absurdly high survivability even if not built for it); Slayer needs to wade in deep as a class that melts almost instantly.

Then the BO has a single target version just for kicks. Boiling Blood used to have it, but it was turned into a mirror of WOP. The problem with making the two abilities direct mirrors is that AOE Choppas are stackable to the point where they can be 20-30% of a scenario population sometimes, stacking SMs would be a liability. The SM version probably has to be functionally more usable, rather than notably weaker on all fronts.

[Foofmonger]

I think Chop Fasta/WW parity would be the best option. Literally mirroring these abilities in terms of effect, cd, duration, and how they are activated would probably be best. Due to the clunkiness of WW, I'd suggest just making WW function like Chop Fast does.

Are cooldown increases currently balanced on this server? I'm just not aware of all the nuance currently.

They are not. A SH has a 40ft cone on a class with the best mobility in the game by several leagues (and absurdly high survivability even if not built for it); Slayer needs to wade in deep as a class that melts almost instantly.

Then the BO has a single target version just for kicks. Boiling Blood used to have it, but it was turned into a mirror of WOP. The problem with making the two abilities direct mirrors is that AOE Choppas are stackable to the point where they can be 20-30% of a scenario population sometimes, stacking SMs would be a liability. The SM version probably has to be functionally more usable, rather than notably weaker on all fronts.

Ignoring the hyperbole (Slayers melting almost instantly), I agree with your macro level point here. The same point used to be made on live with melee Squigs and Slayers (when melee squigs were terrible classes), and it was a valid argument, so I see your point as it relates to WW vs Chop Fasta. So maybe "more or less" a direct mirror with some potential added benefit for the SM class that the Choppa doesn't have would be the best option.

On that same note, seems like Order could use a single target cooldown increaser for parity with Destro as well.

[teiloh]

I played mSH on live, swapping with ranged every now and then until 70s. mSH were incredible, used to do 5-10k damage with a Big Bouncin with UF up. With Chop Fasta you could just spam it end to end. Bad Gas was uncurable because it was a cripple for some time.

Then there are a bunch of other tricks I don't see mSH using here so I won't say anything.

[Foofmonger]

I played mSH on live, swapping with ranged every now and then until 70s. mSH were incredible, used to do 5-10k damage with a Big Bouncin with UF up. With Chop Fasta you could just spam it end to end. Bad Gas was uncurable because it was a cripple for some time.

Then there are a bunch of other tricks I don't see mSH using here so I won't say anything.

I mean UF was just a stupid morale that gave every class with it an incredible burst potential, but this is a topic that would derail your thread so no point to go there. I agree with your main point.

[adamthelc]

Removing mor choppin dem or giving it a much longer CD makes sense. Would be a big hit to BOs, but that is because it probably doesnt need that ability.

Agree with increasing the usability of WW, but dont agree with giving it a good secondary ability like a HD. The CD reduction is good enough on it's own.

I dont think Chop Fasta needs to have the longer CD returned.

The other thing to think about here is that right now destro should have more CD reduction. If you make these changes it's going to be easier to have a SM in every group than it is to have a Choppa in every group. That would be a dramatic shift and if balance is the goal it might not really achieve that.

If you are really looking for balance it would make more sense to have the BO keep it, make the SM version more useable and give Choppas a replacement. That might not be a popular option, especially among Choppa players, but that would be how you make it balanced.

[Foofmonger]

Removing mor choppin dem or giving it a much longer CD makes sense. Would be a big hit to BOs, but that is because it probably doesnt need that ability.

Agree with increasing the usability of WW, but dont agree with giving it a good secondary ability like a HD. The CD reduction is good enough on it's own.

I dont think Chop Fasta needs to have the longer CD returned.

The other thing to think about here is that right now destro should have more CD reduction. If you make these changes it's going to be easier to have a SM in every group than it is to have a Choppa in every group. That would be a dramatic shift and if balance is the goal it might not really achieve that.

If you are really looking for balance it would make more sense to have the BO keep it, make the SM version more useable and give Choppas a replacement. That might not be a popular option, especially among Choppa players, but that would be how you make it balanced.

I personally like this. I think having this as tank functionality makes a lot more sense than DPS personally.

[teiloh]

Removing mor choppin dem or giving it a much longer CD makes sense. Would be a big hit to BOs, but that is because it probably doesnt need that ability.

Agree with increasing the usability of WW, but dont agree with giving it a good secondary ability like a HD. The CD reduction is good enough on it's own.

I dont think Chop Fasta needs to have the longer CD returned.

The other thing to think about here is that right now destro should have more CD reduction. If you make these changes it's going to be easier to have a SM in every group than it is to have a Choppa in every group. That would be a dramatic shift and if balance is the goal it might not really achieve that.

If you are really looking for balance it would make more sense to have the BO keep it, make the SM version more useable and give Choppas a replacement. That might not be a popular option, especially among Choppa players, but that would be how you make it balanced.

From watching my RvR quests, I'd say that Greenskins/Choppas are hugely overpopulated. Keep in mind even with all the changes proposed SMs will still require 3-7 seconds of estimated setup time to get theirs going. Choppa's is just instant. Not to mention much more frontloaded - rarely are fights not decided before the first 20 seconds.

I have a bias that favors maintaining the general design of a class on release, because it embodies a lot of the thinking of legacy devs and extensive beta testing with controlled feedback, imperfect as it might be. An enabled WW would still have the drawbacks listed, but they'd be mitigated. I favor Chop Fasta on Choppas because it's a direct answer to Shatter Limbs and works very well with the class design in general. I really dislike all of the SM/BO mirroring for thematic as well as balancing reasons, but that's for another thread. I also favor the Heal Steal idea because that's the post that Mythic got their idea for Tainted Claw on Marauders from, lol.

After the proposal, you'd have the comparison below:

20/60 Chop Fasta; instant uptime, 9x in the tree, frontloaded and 1 GCD only (0 effective as it's on a pure melee class, used in pre-melee phase of combat), highly stackable, defenses do not interfere

Improved WW; higher uptime

[Foofmonger]

I have a bias that favors maintaining the general design of a class on release, because it embodies a lot of the thinking of legacy devs and extensive beta testing with controlled feedback, imperfect as it might be. An enabled WW would still have the drawbacks listed, but they'd be mitigated. I favor Chop Fasta on Choppas because it's a direct answer to Shatter Limbs and works very well with the class design in general. I really dislike all of the SM/BO mirroring for thematic as well as balancing reasons, but that's for another thread. I also favor the Heal Steal idea because that's the post that Mythic got their idea for Tainted Claw on Marauders from, lol.

I can now see where we have a fundamental disagreement on balance we won't ever be able to rectify. I have a bias that says the Mythic design and balancing team was one of the most incompetent groups of MMO developers in history when it comes to balance, and their inability to proper balance this game directly led to the games overall death. Their vision for balance was ultimately terrible, should never be replicated, and only leads to doom in the end. I spent years of my life arguing with them about the most simple and obvious changes, the vast majority of which they ended up doing after I explained to them why their own thoughts made absolutely no sense.

I dislike trying to hold true to a failed vision, and have no interest in repeating mistakes of the past.

Therefore, we may want to refrain from directly trying to come to a consensus, and agree to disagree, as we have diametrically opposed visions of what balance "should be".