Balancing cooldown decreasers

[teiloh]

I can now see where we have a fundamental disagreement on balance we won't ever be able to rectify. I have a bias that says the Mythic design and balancing team was one of the most incompetent groups of MMO developers in history when it comes to balance, and their inability to proper balance this game directly led to the games overall death. Their vision for balance was ultimately terrible, should never be replicated, and only leads to doom in the end. I spent years of my life arguing with them about the most simple and obvious changes, the vast majority of which they ended up doing after I explained to them why their own thoughts made absolutely no sense.

I dislike trying to hold true to a failed vision, and have no interest in repeating mistakes of the past.

Therefore, we may want to refrain from directly trying to come to a consensus, and agree to disagree, as we have diametrically opposed visions of what balance "should be".

Mythic ultimately did a better job, as bad as you might argue it is, when they weren't kneejerking to uninformed emotional gamers. The alternative wasn't controlled feedback, it was chaos.

[Foofmonger]

I can now see where we have a fundamental disagreement on balance we won't ever be able to rectify. I have a bias that says the Mythic design and balancing team was one of the most incompetent groups of MMO developers in history when it comes to balance, and their inability to proper balance this game directly led to the games overall death. Their vision for balance was ultimately terrible, should never be replicated, and only leads to doom in the end. I spent years of my life arguing with them about the most simple and obvious changes, the vast majority of which they ended up doing after I explained to them why their own thoughts made absolutely no sense.

I dislike trying to hold true to a failed vision, and have no interest in repeating mistakes of the past.

Therefore, we may want to refrain from directly trying to come to a consensus, and agree to disagree, as we have diametrically opposed visions of what balance "should be".

Mythic ultimately did a better job, as bad as you might argue it is, when they weren't kneejerking to uninformed emotional gamers. The alternative wasn't controlled feedback, it was chaos.

Well of course, I 100% agree with that. I think we would both agree that opinion based, emotionally driven, personally biased balance opinions are not very useful.

Mythic tended to do their best in the very opposite scenario, when they made systematic and well thought out changes based on the feedback of informed and logical players/gamers. They tended to do their worst when hubris would get to them and they listened to no one, I much preferred the kneejerky chaos to what Mythic conceived balance should have been.

[Nefarian78]

Yet another grass is greener post from Teiloh...Color me surprised.

Removing mor choppin dem or giving it a much longer CD makes sense. Would be a big hit to BOs, but that is because it probably doesnt need that ability.

That statement alone shows you are no expert when it comes to how Black Orcs work in a warband and what is the role they perform. First off, the tactic increases Waaagh's CD to 20s. That's plenty of CD and doesn't need to be touched.

Secondly, i'd like to remember to everyone why Mor Choppin Dem was added. It was added because after the Big Brawlin' nerf (2017) and Sorc meta death, Black Orcs weren't an attractive choice for Warbands. The tactic was added in 2018 something.

Let's say Mor Choppin Dem is removed. What utility does a Black Orc bring to a warband that is actually effective and changes things? Deafening Bellow (A M3 in our current BW/Sorc Mara/WL M2 meta) plus Ya Missed Me and Not in Da Face to counter Slayer's ridicolous, undefendable ID damage. One could slot in Big Brawlin and have a 50% uptime aoe disorient in exchange of having 10s CD on Big Swing. Not much compared to the other tanks, in addition to also not having any damage whatsoever to assist the warband with.

Right now, both Destro CD reducers are effectively use on demand, whereas a Swordmaster must:

1. Get into position. This can take you away from several group member who need the buff on inc.
2. Find a target where a Silence would be appropriate (i.e. no free immunities or badly timed CC)
3. Land a hit. It's easy to "call out" a Chop Fasta at the start of engagement. Not really possible with WW. This means you lose the opening 3-10 seconds (or more) where your group might not have a CD increaser.
4. vs. Chop Fasta, consume one or two more GCDs

A long time ago Whispering Winds was a rare advantage Order had, but with the release of the Choppa class this was turned on its head. Even with the more balanced 20/60s uptime on Chop Fasta, Destro had a decided advantage here for the reasons listed above, not to mention that Swordmasters are much less stackable, popular and well-performing as the two Orcs.

Suggestion:

1. Replace Mor' Choppin' Dem as seems to be planned

2. Make Whispering Winds more usable. I'll revive an old suggestion on a BiowareMythic thread - make Whispering Winds a single target, 20 foot range, 25% heal debuff/steal that also triggers the CD reduction. This will help SMs open with their CD reducer much more reliably.

3. Chop Fasta. IMO, this should be set back to a 20/60 reuse, or be made into an attack that triggers the effect like WW, 10/20s uptime.

You're quoting a thread that was honestly filled with horrible ideas and was, seemingly, abandoned. (Deafening Bellow damage buffed to 1500, Wings of Heaven 600 aoe dmg, Immaculate Defense nerf, Raze 2h requirement, 5s aoe unbreakable root + 900 dmg No Escape)

Mor Choppin Dem doesn't need to be changed, neither does it need to be mirrored on Whispering Wind. Nor does Chop Fasta need a nerf. As of right now, Order has better raw numbers and better morale play than Destro. Try playing in a 24v24 fight between coordinated warbands to see how the balance actually is before making uninformed, biased and hyperbole-filled posts, please.

[teiloh]

You're quoting a thread that was honestly filled with horrible ideas and was, seemingly, abandoned. (Deafening Bellow damage buffed to 1500, Wings of Heaven 600 aoe dmg, Immaculate Defense nerf, Raze 2h requirement, 5s aoe unbreakable root + 900 dmg No Escape)

Mor Choppin Dem doesn't need to be changed, neither does it need to be mirrored on Whispering Wind. Nor does Chop Fasta need a nerf. As of right now, Order has better raw numbers and better morale play than Destro. Try playing in a 24v24 fight between coordinated warbands to see how the balance actually is before making uninformed, biased and hyperbole-filled posts, please.

Yes, it does. Post was from wargrimnir btw. Order does not have "better morale play" than Destro. Are you from the same dimension as the rest of us? 7 viable morale builders, one of which can grant 5400 to a group in exchange for 2 real GCDs and two tactic slots, mean something. So you're saying Destro's overpowered "morale play" justifies Destro being overpowered in CD reducers as well? What?

Merely saying others are uninformed and bias does not contradict the logic/data provided here.

Let's say Mor Choppin Dem is removed. What utility does a Black Orc bring to a warband that is actually effective and changes things? Deafening Bellow (A M3 in our current BW/Sorc Mara/WL M2 meta) plus Ya Missed Me and Not in Da Face to counter Slayer's ridicolous, undefendable ID damage. One could slot in Big Brawlin and have a 50% uptime aoe disorient in exchange of having 10s CD on Big Swing. Not much compared to the other tanks, in addition to also not having any damage whatsoever to assist the warband with.

If that's all you could come up with there's nothing to say. If you think a class being not meta for a warband means it deserves to be given their realm's double dose of one of the most powerful abilities in the game, then sure. I guess we can hand out CD reducers like candy to WHs, IBs and SWs as well.

[Nefarian78]

Yes, it does. Post was from wargrimnir btw. Order does not have "better morale play" than Destro. Are you from the same dimension as the rest of us? 7 viable morale builders, one of which can grant 5400 to a group in exchange for 2 real GCDs and two tactic slots, mean something. So you're saying Destro's overpowered "morale play" justifies Destro being overpowered in CD reducers as well? What?

Merely saying others are uninformed and bias does not contradict the logic/data provided here.

One just has to look at your post history to know that there's no reason trying to explain, discuss or talk anything balance related with you. I'm not even going to try, i just wanted to point out what a Black Orc brings compared to the other tanks (Which you, as expected, completely ignored and immediatly play the "so you're saying" and "Destro Op" cards).

My suggestion still stands though. Try playing in a 24v24 organized warband fight.

[teiloh]

Yes, it does. Post was from wargrimnir btw. Order does not have "better morale play" than Destro. Are you from the same dimension as the rest of us? 7 viable morale builders, one of which can grant 5400 to a group in exchange for 2 real GCDs and two tactic slots, mean something. So you're saying Destro's overpowered "morale play" justifies Destro being overpowered in CD reducers as well? What?

Merely saying others are uninformed and bias does not contradict the logic/data provided here.

One just has to look at your post history to know that there's no reason trying to explain, discuss or talk anything balance related with you. I'm not even going to try, i just wanted to point out what a Black Orc brings compared to the other tanks (Which you, as expected, completely ignored and immediatly play the "so you're saying" and "Destro Op" cards).

My suggestion still stands though. Try playing in a 24v24 organized warband fight.

Yep, I played in plenty of those. Destro is simply overloaded with utility and AOE, end of story. I guess you think the gear advantage/win ratio in cities is because Destro is more skilled?

Don't forget when you claimed that this: https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,3108,3073

Is the best tank in the game. Yeah, I'm not too sure about that.

[adamthelc]

Yet another grass is greener post from Teiloh...Color me surprised.

Removing mor choppin dem or giving it a much longer CD makes sense. Would be a big hit to BOs, but that is because it probably doesnt need that ability.

That statement alone shows you are no expert when it comes to how Black Orcs work in a warband and what is the role they perform. First off, the tactic increases Waaagh's CD to 20s. That's plenty of CD and doesn't need to be touched.

Secondly, i'd like to remember to everyone why Mor Choppin Dem was added. It was added because after the Big Brawlin' nerf (2017) and Sorc meta death, Black Orcs weren't an attractive choice for Warbands. The tactic was added in 2018 something.

Let's say Mor Choppin Dem is removed. What utility does a Black Orc bring to a warband that is actually effective and changes things? Deafening Bellow (A M3 in our current BW/Sorc Mara/WL M2 meta) plus Ya Missed Me and Not in Da Face to counter Slayer's ridicolous, undefendable ID damage. One could slot in Big Brawlin and have a 50% uptime aoe disorient in exchange of having 10s CD on Big Swing. Not much compared to the other tanks, in addition to also not having any damage whatsoever to assist the warband with.

Right now, both Destro CD reducers are effectively use on demand, whereas a Swordmaster must:

1. Get into position. This can take you away from several group member who need the buff on inc.
2. Find a target where a Silence would be appropriate (i.e. no free immunities or badly timed CC)
3. Land a hit. It's easy to "call out" a Chop Fasta at the start of engagement. Not really possible with WW. This means you lose the opening 3-10 seconds (or more) where your group might not have a CD increaser.
4. vs. Chop Fasta, consume one or two more GCDs

A long time ago Whispering Winds was a rare advantage Order had, but with the release of the Choppa class this was turned on its head. Even with the more balanced 20/60s uptime on Chop Fasta, Destro had a decided advantage here for the reasons listed above, not to mention that Swordmasters are much less stackable, popular and well-performing as the two Orcs.

Suggestion:

1. Replace Mor' Choppin' Dem as seems to be planned

2. Make Whispering Winds more usable. I'll revive an old suggestion on a BiowareMythic thread - make Whispering Winds a single target, 20 foot range, 25% heal debuff/steal that also triggers the CD reduction. This will help SMs open with their CD reducer much more reliably.

3. Chop Fasta. IMO, this should be set back to a 20/60 reuse, or be made into an attack that triggers the effect like WW, 10/20s uptime.

You're quoting a thread that was honestly filled with horrible ideas and was, seemingly, abandoned. (Deafening Bellow damage buffed to 1500, Wings of Heaven 600 aoe dmg, Immaculate Defense nerf, Raze 2h requirement, 5s aoe unbreakable root + 900 dmg No Escape)

Mor Choppin Dem doesn't need to be changed, neither does it need to be mirrored on Whispering Wind. Nor does Chop Fasta need a nerf. As of right now, Order has better raw numbers and better morale play than Destro. Try playing in a 24v24 fight between coordinated warbands to see how the balance actually is before making uninformed, biased and hyperbole-filled posts, please.

What is hard to understand? Like I said it would be a big hit, but I would still prefer them to BG without it.

I was saying Destro had much better CD decreasers compared to order. Everything I said was in the context of balancing the CD decreasers between factions. If you dont think they need to be balanced, fine, I am not trying to argue overall faction balance.

At the very least WW should be more useable. A CD decreaser tied to a single target melee silence is a bad design.

[teiloh]

^ Yep, the imbalance is stark especially when Order was originally designed to have an advantage in uptime.