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Skullgrin
Posts: 547

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#101 » Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:15 pm

WARChosen wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:57 am
Then what is the point doing Offensive set

The point is the same as any other gear grind in an MMO, to stay on the cutting edge of what is possible with your class.

I've gone through all the pieces on the three new sets, weighed the pros and cons of each and decided which ones (and which set bonuses) I personally think are the best for me. When I finally get those 8 pieces of gear, I'm only going to have around +25 strength after reallocating my renown points to make up for the armors deficiencies. I won't be getting much in the way of DPS, but I think that I'm going to be gaining a ton of survive-ability with all of the extra toughness and wounds.

My first goal is to grab 3 pieces of Warlord, which may actually be a slight offensive nerf for me, but it will fit in for what I have planned once I get all the other Sovereign pieces I want. I do plan on eventually getting all 3 sets of armor just so I can play around mixing and matching pieces to see what works together and what doesn't, because there always seems to be something hidden when mixing sets that only becomes obvious once you have them equipped. Time will tell, and that's half the fun when playing around with this aspect of the game...
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anarchypark
Posts: 1572

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#102 » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:00 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:58 pm
Tanks have toughness. It's a core stat for the archtype. Even the "DPS" spec. Some of this might be traded for more weaponskill instead on the DPS set.

Swordmaster last I checked uses physical damage on all of their autoattacks and ~10 other abilities, weaponskill is not "useless" for them.

perhaps trade some stats for strikethrough ?
defensive sov has 3% 2% 6% block inside set.
offensive sov doesn't have much offensive % stats i think.
strikethrough will provide counter against defensive sov.
that is IF you need to change it.
I'm fine with current stats.

ps. SM warlord have +3 khaine at 6th bonus. missing hoeth.
SM8, SW8, AM7, WL4, KoBS5, BW4, WP8, WH4, IB4, EG4, RP4, SL5
BG7, Sorc6, DoK7, WE7, Cs7, Mg7, Ze6, Mara6, BO4, SH4, Shm5, Chop3
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2020.06.09)

Babanim
Posts: 32

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#103 » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:53 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:58 pm
Tanks have toughness. It's a core stat for the archtype. Even the "DPS" spec.
It just came to my attention that tank is the only archetype to have the DPS set be so far away from what the majority of the players would like it to be.

Shamans and DOKs don't have a single point of willpower on their offensive sov despite being healer archetype making the archetype argument irrelevant.

Shamans have 3 (!) pieces with 2% magic crit and 2 pieces with magic power. They also have 6% magic crit as a set bonus on top of that (total crit 12%). The stats on each item is nothing but the 3 stats that they truly need; Intel, Wounds and Ini. (The ONLY exception to this is the chest that has 27 toughness).

The dps-healer mechanics (especially shaman's WAAAGH) were completely ignored to give the players what they truly wanted: a pure dps set that turns them into killing machines.

Tanks, sadly, have 0 piece with melee crit or melee power on top of having every piece LOADED with toughness.

I don't really understand why healers get near-perfect fully offensive DPS sovereign sets with no wasted stats/attributes while tanks have to settle for weird hybrid sets with a bunch of useless stats/attributes. Why do tanks have to be pushed into wearing a hybrid set but it's totally fine to have dps healers wear pure dps gear? (Shaman offensive sov is basically a sorc set for example)

Even Zealots have really good DPS sets since they can convert everything with HoD.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not even asking for a PURE DPS set for tanks. What I'm asking (and many other tanks as well) is to have everything on the very end game set be useful for the spec. We don't want any wasted stats and we surely don't want to be forced into a hybrid role by wearing hybrid gear.

Wearing Bloodlord is fine and all but when we will start facing full sov/warlord enemy dps, it won't be fair anymore. Tanks need to keep up with everyone else, there is no reason to leave them behind like this.

These are the current stats on DPS Sov for tanks (and my propositions):

+2 AP/s (fine)
+4 AP/s (fine)
2% reduced chance to be crit (good!)
+2 morale -> could be 2% melee crit
+2 morale -> could be 2% melee crit
8hp/4s (useless) -> ?? could be 2% reduced chance to be crit OR melee power
2% parry (good!)
2% disrupt -> could be 2% parry
2% dodge -> could be 2% parry
4% reduced armor pen -> could be 4% armor penetration OR melee power

Unfortunately, there is currently not a single offensive stat and way too many useless defensive stats. (I'm not even talking about the massive 227 toughness spread out on the pieces and the BIG lack of initiative as that was already covered many times)

My proposed changes would put the DPS tank set on par with DPS healer set, it would follow the same design philosophy. The set would have a clear purpose and players wouldn't feel forced into wearing hybrid gear. If someone wants hybrid gear, it's already possible to do so by mixing def/off sov and warlord, we don't need a fully dedicated hybrid set.

In the end, we are just trying to have an enjoyable end game gear progression for everyone without leaving one archetype behind with mediocre itemization while the others skyrocket to the top of their specs with god-tier gear.

That being said, I cannot thank you enough for your time and efforts that go into making this game!

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Ekundu01
Posts: 213

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#104 » Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:48 pm

Babanim wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:53 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:58 pm
Tanks have toughness. It's a core stat for the archtype. Even the "DPS" spec.
It just came to my attention that tank is the only archetype to have the DPS set be so far away from what the majority of the players would like it to be.

Shamans and DOKs don't have a single point of willpower on their offensive sov despite being healer archetype making the archetype argument irrelevant.

Shamans have 3 (!) pieces with 2% magic crit and 2 pieces with magic power. They also have 6% magic crit as a set bonus on top of that (total crit 12%). The stats on each item is nothing but the 3 stats that they truly need; Intel, Wounds and Ini. (The ONLY exception to this is the chest that has 27 toughness).

The dps-healer mechanics (especially shaman's WAAAGH) were completely ignored to give the players what they truly wanted: a pure dps set that turns them into killing machines.

Tanks, sadly, have 0 piece with melee crit or melee power on top of having every piece LOADED with toughness.

I don't really understand why healers get near-perfect fully offensive DPS sovereign sets with no wasted stats/attributes while tanks have to settle for weird hybrid sets with a bunch of useless stats/attributes. Why do tanks have to be pushed into wearing a hybrid set but it's totally fine to have dps healers wear pure dps gear? (Shaman offensive sov is basically a sorc set for example)

Even Zealots have really good DPS sets since they can convert everything with HoD.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not even asking for a PURE DPS set for tanks. What I'm asking (and many other tanks as well) is to have everything on the very end game set be useful for the spec. We don't want any wasted stats and we surely don't want to be forced into a hybrid role by wearing hybrid gear.

Wearing Bloodlord is fine and all but when we will start facing full sov/warlord enemy dps, it won't be fair anymore. Tanks need to keep up with everyone else, there is no reason to leave them behind like this.

These are the current stats on DPS Sov for tanks (and my propositions):

+2 AP/s (fine)
+4 AP/s (fine)
2% reduced chance to be crit (good!)
+2 morale -> could be 2% melee crit
+2 morale -> could be 2% melee crit
8hp/4s (useless) -> ?? could be 2% reduced chance to be crit OR melee power
2% parry (good!)
2% disrupt -> could be 2% parry
2% dodge -> could be 2% parry
4% reduced armor pen -> could be 4% armor penetration OR melee power

Unfortunately, there is currently not a single offensive stat and way too many useless defensive stats. (I'm not even talking about the massive 227 toughness spread out on the pieces and the BIG lack of initiative as that was already covered many times)

My proposed changes would put the DPS tank set on par with DPS healer set, it would follow the same design philosophy. The set would have a clear purpose and players wouldn't feel forced into wearing hybrid gear. If someone wants hybrid gear, it's already possible to do so by mixing def/off sov and warlord, we don't need a fully dedicated hybrid set.

In the end, we are just trying to have an enjoyable end game gear progression for everyone without leaving one archetype behind with mediocre itemization while the others skyrocket to the top of their specs with god-tier gear.

That being said, I cannot thank you enough for your time and efforts that go into making this game!
It isn't all about the stats and more about scaling/contribution of those stats.

Tanks are a tank first and damage second. Your str contribution to your skills is very small. Most tanks already have very low base damage values on abilities and str barely moves that base damage. 100-120 str roughly is about 20 extra damage per hit.

Healers are in the same boat. They may have nice numbers on paper dps wise with intel but the contribution scaling from intel is a lot lower compared to true dps caster classes like BW or sorc.

Even if you could get 900+ str on a tank with semi decent crit rating and armor pen you still won't match a mdps damage in equal gear. This is balanced through your survival and having high armor and being able to get high amounts of toughness to last longer to allow your low damage to add up.

If you want a tanky mdps roll a mdps and grab the defensive sov gear and you will still probably put out more damage than a tank in full offensive gear.

Taking away survival in favor of damage stats is not going to improve your dps when you are dieing because you don't have the survival to make it to the target because you don't have the tools mdps have to close the gap you don't have a detaunt and you still don't have the damage equal to a mdps.
Trismack - Black Sheep

Illuminati
Posts: 172

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#105 » Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:02 pm

Skullgrin wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:15 pm
WARChosen wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:57 am
Then what is the point doing Offensive set

The point is the same as any other gear grind in an MMO, to stay on the cutting edge of what is possible with your class.

I've gone through all the pieces on the three new sets, weighed the pros and cons of each and decided which ones (and which set bonuses) I personally think are the best for me. When I finally get those 8 pieces of gear, I'm only going to have around +25 strength after reallocating my renown points to make up for the armors deficiencies. I won't be getting much in the way of DPS, but I think that I'm going to be gaining a ton of survive-ability with all of the extra toughness and wounds.

My first goal is to grab 3 pieces of Warlord, which may actually be a slight offensive nerf for me, but it will fit in for what I have planned once I get all the other Sovereign pieces I want. I do plan on eventually getting all 3 sets of armor just so I can play around mixing and matching pieces to see what works together and what doesn't, because there always seems to be something hidden when mixing sets that only becomes obvious once you have them equipped. Time will tell, and that's half the fun when playing around with this aspect of the game...
I think you're on to something. The 2H Chosen Axe for BE/BB has a ton of toughness on it and another bubble. Toughness shines with bubbles since if reduced enough the damage cant crit and will be completely owned by the bubble. Basically with Warped Flesh and the 2H bubble, you are negating 1 of every 3 enemy attacks.

Anyway, I did a ton of math around the set and the DPS isn't there, but a lot more survival.

PS. Please +1 the github bug that Seeping Wounds doesn't crit. Just fixing that (probably a victim of the Crippling Strikes days) would provide a decent DPS improvement and burst potential by itself.
https://github.com/WarEmu/WarBugs/issues/15753
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Tosher85
Posts: 10

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#106 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:46 pm

This set doesn't have ini and parry - the main stats for off tank. also str and ws are kinda low.
The best way to go is mixing sets right now. It means that the set is not optimally tuned.
P.S. Str contri for different ab's is different, so 120 str = 20 dmg per hit is a false statement.

Yours faithfully, Deadmazai.

GONDOR
Posts: 14

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#107 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:32 am

Man this is a pretty long thread to read.


I think I've managed to get a handle on most of the feedback in the thread.


It would appear that the general consensus is the offensive sovereign stat allocation is a little off, making other sets (like the warlord) much better.


Things that stood out:
  • Too much toughness
    (Not including the set bonus) Offensive Sov has more toughness than the Defensive Sov.
  • Not enough parry
    Offensive tanks still need to guard, and the emphasis of Offensive Sov on the 2h tree for tanks, parry is the only way to mitigate incoming guard damage.
  • Off Sov for stats/damage is outclassed by lower tier sets
    This is a mix of things, like the extra crit on Bloodlord / Oppressor, high Weapon Skill for armour pen from Warlord and Beastlord, and low Initiative compared Warlord and Sentinel etc.
From the point of view as an Ironbreaker; weapon skill is one of our most important stats, as all of our damage is physical, and weapon skill contributes to parry. This makes Warlord (particularly the penetration bonus) very good for IBs, and the set becomes much better than the offensive Sovereign, for both damage, and guardbot.


I had a go at moving some of the stat points around, to see what was possible. I tried to ensure the role of the Off Sov tank was a (2H) bodyguard and assistant to a MDPS. I was very hesitant to optimise the set to the extreme (e.g. removing reduced armour pen, AP, dodge & disrupt, to stack stats). I was also hesitant to try make the stats the be-all-end-all of DPS sets, as mixing and matching sets are a core part of builds. (Tanks might want the Str bonus with Dodge Disrupt and Reduced Pen, for example).


To that extent, my understanding for a 2H tank is they need to mitigate incoming guard damage, and bring enough hurt when combined with a partnered MDPS, to ensure a single target kill. Furthermore, if this set is meant to be the 'offensive' set, and the other Sovereign set is 'defensive', I assume Warlord is 'middle of the road'.

One of the key things about itemising this set, is to not make it 'too killy'. I tried to do this by not really increasing the raw DPS too much, and moving toughness around into other key stats.


Image
* Red indicates changes
** Warlord stat totals also include equivalent points (6% ArP = 88 WS, 99 MP = 99 Str)


I didn't change all the pieces, the big changes were on the Back, Shoulders, Chest, and Accessory.


The main changes were:
  • Strength: +18
    Toughness: -65
    Wounds: -16
    Initiative: +35
    Weapon Skill: +28
    Parry: +2
    Melee Crit: +6

    Shoulders:
    Halving Toughness (28 -> 15), halving Wounds (31 -> 16), to give Weapon Skill (0 -> 28)
    Removing HP/S (64 -> 0), removing Morale (2 -> 0), to give Melee Crit (0 -> 2)

    There was a lot of defensive stats on the one piece, splitting the toughness and wounds in half to give a single offensive stat, and exchanging both health regen and morale for 2% crit, a unique bonus, but inline with the SC sets providing a damage stat on shoulders.


    Back:
    Halving the Toughness (30 -> 15) to give Initiative (0 -> 15)
    Removing the Dodge (2 -> 0) to give Melee Crit (0 -> 2)

    There's a lot of Toughness on this piece and the set, and a little more Initiative is nice to have. Melee crit is another unique bonus. The offensive sov set gives a crit damage as a bonus, may as well take advantage of it, plus there aren't many capes that do provide crit (the closest being the inf reward from T4 RVR, or Warrior Genesis set). This helps the Off Sov set compete with Bloodlord, without replacing it entirely. That said, it could also be exchanged for more Parry.


    Accessory/Chain
    Halving the Toughness (30 ->15) to give Strength (15 -> 30)
    Removing the Morale (2 -> 0) to give Parry (0 -> 2)

    It's an offensive set, and toughness being the highest stat on one of the bit pieces was a little odd. I put the points into Strength, but they could also go into Weapon Skill or Initiative. I am mindful some tanks would prefer Strength over Weapon Skill.

    Parry is a key stat for mitigating guard damage.


    Head
    Halving the Reduced Armour Pen (4 -> 2) to give Melee Crit (0 -> 2)

    Not a massive change, but it's the offensive set, a little bit of extra crit will help this set compete with Bloodlord.


    Chest
    Halving the Toughness (40 -> 20) to give Initiative (0 -> 20)

    Toughness was the highest stat on this piece, and given the set is low on Initiative, it's nice to have a little more.
There's a lot of stuff here, and this is just a stab at moving the stats around.

Main things I tried to do was make the set more desirable than counterparts such as Bloodlord, Warlord, or Sentinel, and itemise it in such a way it's hard to choose which piece you want for your build, or opening new ways to build your 2h tank.

Hypernia
Posts: 102

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#108 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:52 am

The other problem is that Bloodlord is based on Procs, particularly the parry one - and so those are stats you need to make up as well, not just comparing the set pieces in a vacuum.

That said the current best setup seems somethign like 5 Off Sov / 3 Bloodlord, to get the Str and Woudns bonuses from Bloodlord, and the Crit Dmg and Crit % bonuses from Sov. If you mix the right pieces you can avoid some of the toughness overloading

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GONDOR
Posts: 14

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#109 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 1:33 pm

Hypernia wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:52 am
The other problem is that Bloodlord is based on Procs, particularly the parry one - and so those are stats you need to make up as well, not just comparing the set pieces in a vacuum.

That said the current best setup seems somethign like 5 Off Sov / 3 Bloodlord, to get the Str and Woudns bonuses from Bloodlord, and the Crit Dmg and Crit % bonuses from Sov. If you mix the right pieces you can avoid some of the toughness overloading
The set bonuses are unlikely to change.

The challenge is stats have different value for each class. For an Ironbreaker, at this tier, stacking Armour Penetration / Weapon Skill is best for damage, since our damage is entirely physical. This makes the 5pc Warlord right up there as the best set of bonuses for IB. Unfortunately, the Off Sov set has standardised stats, so itemising will vary for each class.

Key takeaways:
Weapon Skill is underrated
Parry % is in vogue
Crit is universally desirable by all off tanks
Toughness is everywhere, and it is chewing up the offensive sov stat budget

User avatar
Nefarian78
Posts: 411

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#110 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:20 pm

Hypernia wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:52 am
The other problem is that Bloodlord is based on Procs, particularly the parry one - and so those are stats you need to make up as well, not just comparing the set pieces in a vacuum.

That said the current best setup seems somethign like 5 Off Sov / 3 Bloodlord, to get the Str and Woudns bonuses from Bloodlord, and the Crit Dmg and Crit % bonuses from Sov. If you mix the right pieces you can avoid some of the toughness overloading
That's not why Bloodlord is superior. Reactionary proc doesn't stack with Parry abilities and as such was never needed or used (outside of a couple cases, like IBs going for Earthshatter instead of Oathbound)

Bloodlord simply is a better itemized set. It has the stats a 2h tank needs to perform their role, while off-sov has an absurb abundance of Toughness (227) and next to no Initiative (33) while having just barely more wounds (106) compared to Bloodlord (101). Add low Str to the mix (124), low WS (45) and only 2% parry and you end up with the disaster that is tank Off-sov. The only good thing the set has going for itself is the higher armor values, but that's to be expected with the set being a tier higher than Bloodlord.

at least 120 of that toughness has to be replaced by a mix of Str, Wounds, Ini and WS and the 2% Disrupt on the belt converted to an additional 2% Parry.
Vorak - Capulet

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