Recent Topics

Ads

Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

We want to hear your thoughts and ideas.
Forum rules
Before posting on this forum, be sure to read the Terms of Use

Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
Babanim
Posts: 32

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#91 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:10 pm

Dominator has a total of 35 toughness on the entire set. Bloodlord has 21 total. Oppressor has 0.

Offensive Sovereign has 227. What happened? :?

I think 99% of the people in this thread would be happy with around 50-60 toughness spread out on the pieces and use the rest of the point for Str, WS, Wounds and ini.

The regen and reduced armor penetration have to go, they serve no purpose on a dps set. Trading some of that disrupt/dodge for parry is important.

I made a report about this a couple of weeks ago with many constructive feedbacks, ideas and suggestions on how to improve the dps set. :)

I know our developers have the knowledge and tools to make a very interesting dps set for end game. You were able to do so in the past so I have trust in you. You can do it again!

Ads
User avatar
Skullgrin
Posts: 837

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#92 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:39 pm

WARChosen wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:01 pm if i can ask if it's an offensive set then why there is no mele crit chance, mele power or haste on each piece of armor i don't talk of set bonuses

Well, with the melee power and crit chance, its because the were moved to being bonuses that you don't see them as regular stats.

As for AA haste, I remember back when Oppressor armor first came out there was a piece of it that had +10% AA haste on it. I made a comment in some thread about how I was looking forward to using it along with the Dominator shoulders, Imperator helm, and Oathstones set to get 40% haste total.

The haste was removed from the Oppressor piece of armor within a week and the Imperator and Overlord sets were removed from the vendor within a month. It could have been a coincidence, but I had the feeling at the time that it happened because the dev's didn't want tanks to have that much of a damage increase via haste. And I haven't seen a single piece of tank gear with haste on it since...
Image
Thargrimm - Chosen 40/88
Thargrimmm - Ironbreaker 40/80

User avatar
WARChosen
Posts: 67

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#93 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:35 pm

Skullgrin wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:39 pm
WARChosen wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:01 pm if i can ask if it's an offensive set then why there is no mele crit chance, mele power or haste on each piece of armor i don't talk of set bonuses

Well, with the melee power and crit chance, its because the were moved to being bonuses that you don't see them as regular stats.

Sov Defensive have 3 block on shoulders and 2 block on back and 6 block for bonus set so you get 11 Block even Opressor have 2 crit chance on Belt and Boots + set bonus 5 crit chance so you get 9 crit chance but Offensive Sov have only 6 crit chance from bonus and nothing else
Image

User avatar
Skullgrin
Posts: 837

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#94 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:25 pm

WARChosen wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:35 pm Sov Defensive have 3 block on shoulders and 2 block on back and 6 block for bonus set so you get 11 Block even Opressor have 2 crit chance on Belt and Boots + set bonus 5 crit chance so you get 9 crit chance but Offensive Sov have only 6 crit chance from bonus and nothing else

I could try to explain how the DPS curve in RoR has been flattened out compared to how it was in WAR (and has been since Conq/Dom gear was first released), but it would take way too much time, effort and math on my part to put together a convincing argument. And even after I did, half of the people in here wouldn't believe me and the other half would probably want heads to roll on the dev team.


Suffice to be said, anyone in this thread that is arguing for any significantly increased DPS from stat changes to Sovereign gear is pissing into the wind. The current DPS curve was calculated long ago, and I really don't think there's any changing it at this point without breaking the game.
Image
Thargrimm - Chosen 40/88
Thargrimmm - Ironbreaker 40/80

Babanim
Posts: 32

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#95 » Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:44 am

My #1 concern isn't even so much about the DPS aspect of the set but more about the big lack of PARRY.

Also, I highly doubt redistributing 160 toughness into str, ws, wounds, and initiative would suddenly make tank DPS broken when we compare to what already exist in the game dps wise.

User avatar
Ototo
Posts: 1012

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#96 » Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:32 am

Babanim wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:44 am My #1 concern isn't even so much about the DPS aspect of the set but more about the big lack of PARRY.

Also, I highly doubt redistributing 160 toughness into str, ws, wounds, and initiative would suddenly make tank DPS broken when we compare to what already exist in the game dps wise.
Sorry, I can't stay silent...

DPSs have a fraction of the armor and health pool of a tank. They trade their survivability for damage, same as tanks trade damage for survivability. I can't simply stay sit while are all proposing a redistribution of fight duties that will completely erase the need of DPSs. I'm all the way to trade some side bonuses for parry in every moment, but you can't have the strength count of bloodlord with the armor and defenses count of sovereign. It's OP as hell.

If anything give the extra points to weapon skill so you can fight other tanks with slightly better chances. It's a reasonable non-OP idea. But straight forward adding strength is a damage boost across the board, and will certainly damage archetype balance.

Why picking a DPS squishy class when you can get a tank able to achieve a decent part of that damage and having a lot more survivability? Because you don't want it, even less in the current morale-meta where health pools matter a lot, and guess what? Tanks have the biggest pools.

If they can replace DPSs, then he very few still viable classes for 24vs24 will simply disappear, and don't try to tell me otherwise cause the fact that we have so few viable DPSs is cause of people minimizing the impact on large scale of the shenanigans they try to pass as reasonable here for 6vs6, that it's the huge vocal of the forums, but not the majority of the player-base.

TL;DR I'm all to see some change in the side effects, like taking out some +hp for some %parry, or some +ap for some %disrupt/dodge, or even some strength and toughness (yeah, half of both) for weapon skill, but I'm down to see a drastic change of stats with minimal tank stats in the end product. Do 6-wo/men content if you want it and leave the 24vs24 content with the stats it requires, and in the name of God leave fight roles untouched; they are pretty damaged as they are, with nearly all DPS specs unviable for 24vs24, 6vs6, or even for both. I know that your specific intentions with that suggestion was constructive, but I can clearly see the amount of side consequences.
Spoiler:

waaaghlord
Posts: 13

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#97 » Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:18 am

@Ototo

Why bring “squishy” dps? Simply because they have access to:
1) healdebuffs
2) huge burst window potentials/time stamping (which is the primary way of securing kills in almost any organized setting [comboed with CC] - 6v6, scenarios, even in large scale combat to some large portion [morale coordination for example, and yes, I’m aware tanks are a big part of that]
3) CCs that tanks don’t have access to
4) mobility, which is the extremely important in 6 man PvP (less so in 6v6 than in normal scenarios).
Tanks lack most of these things. Yes, I’m aware that some tanks have some of these tools (e.g.: BO/SM have silence). Those that do are rather the exception, not the rule.

Knowing at the very least these facts you should be able to come to the conclusion that DPS classes will never to be made obsolete (only tanks that can probably replace a DPS to some extent is Black Orc [full offensive tactics + Focused Offense, but now you are literally more squish and A LOT less mobile than a DPS. No AOE detaunt, no snare/root break/immunity, no gap on demand gap closers {yes I know Wings of Heaven exists, it’s not really 100% on demand}). But even then, with said setup, a full “DPS-wannabe” tank can’t really compete with a DPS.

Additionally, being forced to stay in the Bloodlord set to effectively fill your role as an OFFENSIVE tank (not a DPS-wannabe, there is a difference!), while DPS classes get higher tier gear is a dire thing. Higher tier gear equals higher amount of damage you have to sustain. This might cause a situation where “squishy DPS” classes might be tankier than offensive tanks. Many times during (WARNING) 6v6 fights the off tank is the easiest person to kill (lack of AOE detaunt, escape tools). The difference is tier gear between DPS and off tanks will only result in this being more common.

Different type of PvP situations require different type of stat focus/allocation. Large scale RvR encounters (WBvWB) require all tanks to stack toughness, wounds, -chance to be crit, block, disrupt, dodge, +morale, etc (not an expert here, but you get the idea). In small scale PvP fights (6v6, 12v12 scenarios, etc) the situation of tanks is quite different due to the fact that you are allowed to go more offensive. Who has the higher single target pressure wins, simple as that. This is why tanks like BG/IB and SM/BO (KoBS/Chosen will always be the more defensive/utility focused tank, sorry) want/need to go offensive. Just like you said that you want to support the other 23 people in your WB, the offensive tank wants to help his group(s) by increasing the groups ST pressure potential. To do this they need to stack strength, crit, parry strikethrough in addition to more defensive stats like armor, wounds, parry, -chance to be crit, etc. While they don’t need to focus on the defensive AS MUCH as large scale, SnB tanks, they can’t simply ignore them. This will result in a meta shift were either:

1) offensive tanks are a thing of the past. If an offensive tank provide additional ST pressure that is somewhat meaningful during a fight, then he is no longer a offensive tank.
2) double offensive tank meta shift. What else can you do if you lack ST pressure? Throw out the defensive, utility tank and use a second, offensive tank. We already see this on destro (issues out-pressuring certain order comps [140 ini debuff SW + anything for example], huge amount of utility/debuffs that BG bring and lackluster amount of utility that Chosen bring, though is largely unrelated to the topic at hand).
We saw the first case happen during the brief era of 25% guard on 2h tanks (in that case offensive tanks weren’t able to do their primary role - use guard effectively). Every tank was pretty much forced to go SnB, and you can’t really deal decent damage as a SnB tank. Either way this is a bad thing to happen to small scale PvP, mainly because the amount of possible comps/setups will be limited.

This is why (in my opinion) having a offensive set that fulfills its role is extremely important to the health of the game.

User avatar
Ototo
Posts: 1012

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#98 » Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:05 am

waaaghlord wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:18 am @Ototo
Tanks do have access to 1 (not all of them though, but some have it constant and AoE), and have the longest lasting 3, while only 4 can be argued that is countered in itself (I think you speak of charge/pull/pounce here, but is countered by simple snare which is countered by juggernaut/footing, of which tanks have a huge cooldown reduction tactic) by, and in, normal engagement distance. Again, all this combination will have its shenanigans in 24vs24, but right now tanks supply 1, 3 and 4, and surely giving tanks the means to hit soft cap of main damage stat will see more possibilities of 2, where SMs/BOrks or IBs/BGs are currently competitors with some of the forgotten DPS specs, and even with some of the widely used.

I strongly disagree with the statement that DPS classes will not be made obsolete, when currently SMs/BOrks compete in 24vs24 for both DPS and tank slots, and only the lack of DPS stat-wise have not made them an integral part of the sanctity combination, but they are completely accepted as fillers, and way more desired than 5/6 of the DPS specs out there. While this may not be the situation in 6vs6, it's happening in 24vs24, and specially in cities.

I dare you to prove a combination of gear that, at the same gear level, provides less survivability for tanks than for DPSs. You can't cause the base stats of tanks are way higher than other classes in all them, meaning that a tank has more wounds/init/etc than a DPS or healer always, and gear just improves this. Gearing towards survivability decrease the damage potential of DPSs into the non-threatening area, but the same cannot be said otherwise for tanks cause they have a base higher survivability than the DPSs base damage. Right now this is the only thing preventing 24vs24 of being made of 2-4 DPSs and 10-12 tanks. Can be argued that one of the troubles lays in the power given to healing versus morales, but that is entirely off-topic and I would rather not enter into that balance here.

Over crossing the line and giving the chance of soft cap damage stats with the armor and secondary stats of Sovereign will made the balance finally go in the tank side and kill some of the borderline viable specs for WBs, which to be honest is all of them but 3 out of 36, while tanks right now are in a place where only 2 specs out of 18 are not viable while the rest are accepted/required somehow.

24vs24 is about area pressure and morale bomb, and tanks currently win, by A LOT, in morale bombing. If you can survive the 1st enough to drop the second in masse, you win 2/3 of the times. Single target or AoE are quite an important consideration only for DPSs, tanks just have core powerful morales, and so they produce burst when required. No matter how you see it, the highest burst damage of the game now comes from morales and not from skills, so as long as you can survive enough to build the correct morale, you win by coordinating a drop. Remember that we are speaking of 16-24 morales dropped in a very short window of time, normally less than 2 GCDs.

According to this thread and your very own post, 1) is false, but moreover is also false in 24vs24 where SMs/BOrks are currently used as off-tanks, and seen more and more 2h than SnB for quite an obvious reason. What you say that is bad for 6vs6 in 2) is the current state of 24vs24. The amount of possible combinations and setups is extremely limited to the point of non-existent, and is mostly due to the severe competition between tanks and DPSs, that currently only 3 specs win, but every other DPS spec loses, and is preferred an off-tank over them every day. Hell, some specs are even considered memes, while I dare you to point more than 1 tank meme spec (we all now which one I'm speaking of), and that's out of 9 possible tank specs per realm.

And well, this is why I disagree and why I think that the current health of most DPS specs in non-existent in large scale. Having a side spec be as effective as the main spec of other class is, IMO, very bad idea, and will surely create shenanigans, some obvious, others less obvious.

Back on topic, I do see some minor bonuses change, and some other things swift, but I honestly hope for toughness to stay there so tanks stay tanks, DPSs stay DPSs, and that gear gap doesn't determine your class. In any case however, I expect that city content doesn't get moulded to 6vs6, and stays as large scale content, cause I can completely see and accept Lost Vale gear getting the 6vs6 roles and stats. If it's party size content it should have party size stats. The opposite is true too.
Spoiler:

Ads
waaaghlord
Posts: 13

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#99 » Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:56 am

Ok, failed to mention in 1) that I meant incoming healdebuffs (my bad). The ones that actually are the most impactful (because they will work on everyone, tank, DPS or healer). Sure, BG/IB have their outgoing ones, and they are extremely potent. But in proper fights neither of these tanks are gonna have it slotted (since they have way better tactics). At the very best they are decent in solo roam or vs pugs. Most of the time healer are focused after a tank/DPS die (unless terrible positioning on their part) and shouldn’t even be in range on a BG/IB to get HDed. And sure KoBS/Chosen have their 25% inc/out HD, but that doesn’t have any application in small scale. Only recently they became somewhat viable with the removal of AoE HDs from RP/Z. And with multiple possible sources of 25% inc HD like: a) HD proc on WL Subjugator axe, b) BW Bloodlord proc, c) other source of I probably forgot; the Chosen aura loses its potency. And do you honestly think the 25% reduction in healing will have any big impact during fights? How often is a KoBS/Chosen actually within 30ft of enemy healers for it to take effect? (Might have mixed up the two auras, either way it doesn’t really matter)
3) ???
4) Melee DPS have: pounce, charge, snare/root break that grants 10s of immunity to these effects (60s CD), self punt.
Tanks have: juggernaut (same CD as DPS snare break, 20s CD if you use 1 of your 4 precious tactic slots, no immunity given). No immunity means you can get snared literally the next second after using juggernaut. If so, juggernaut was a waste of GDC. SM has M2 pounce, but that’s its unique thing.

Please define what a WB off tank is? Is a SnB tank that stacks full offensive stats? Wouldn’t such a tank die within seconds of an engagement? Is he an off tank because he is using a 2H but full defensive gear with toughness talismans? Or is it a tank that uses his offensive utility (e.g. BG’s Crimson Death). And how the hell are SM/BO close to competing with proper AoE DPS. SM has PW, CA, GW, WoH and the CoT, PE procs. BO has WAAAGH, BS, DBU and AoE punt. Sure, you could make an AoE BO with the B’EO and KIG tactics and spam DBU. But in what world will any of that compare to a BW/Sorc or SL/CH? Please link a build or even an armory link.

And yes, tanks have higher armor, toughness and wounds values on their sets. And DPS have higher strength, WS, BS, int stats. And? They also have higher tooltip damage, crit dmg modifiers, flanking and other damage boosting tactics. Sure, there is GWM on tanks that gives a 10% increase or crit chance increasing tactics. But with the amount of crit any DPS can get through gear, renown and debuffs it’s not much. DPS classes will always, and I really mean ALWAYS deal more damage than a off tank (assuming same stats, etc). Simply because of higher tooltip values. Now you can add crit modifiers (which all but one tank lack), flanking, higher STR/WS values, same/higher amount of crit (except BO/SM I guess, but that’s only during 3rd plan abilities).
Last edited by waaaghlord on Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
WARChosen
Posts: 67

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#100 » Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:57 am

Skullgrin wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:25 pm
WARChosen wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:35 pm Sov Defensive have 3 block on shoulders and 2 block on back and 6 block for bonus set so you get 11 Block even Opressor have 2 crit chance on Belt and Boots + set bonus 5 crit chance so you get 9 crit chance but Offensive Sov have only 6 crit chance from bonus and nothing else

I could try to explain how the DPS curve in RoR has been flattened out compared to how it was in WAR (and has been since Conq/Dom gear was first released), but it would take way too much time, effort and math on my part to put together a convincing argument. And even after I did, half of the people in here wouldn't believe me and the other half would probably want heads to roll on the dev team.


Suffice to be said, anyone in this thread that is arguing for any significantly increased DPS from stat changes to Sovereign gear is pissing into the wind. The current DPS curve was calculated long ago, and I really don't think there's any changing it at this point without breaking the game.
Then what is the point doing Offensive set
Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: fatelvis and 23 guests