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Healing RR gains

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Ghostwalker
Posts: 52

Re: Healing RR gains

Post#41 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:57 pm

Tolerance wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:15 pm
Ghostwalker wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:01 pm
Arbich wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:58 pm

mhm... english is not my native language, but I would say a native english speaker can understand my point. You can´t. So you either lack the language skills, trolling or be just dumb. I each case its not worth to discussing further with you. I am out :D
wow now you're actually abusing me... interesting tactic.

I am English, born here raised here, whats your point exactly?
His point is that you are completely missing his point.

He did not say comms were required, but he (rightfully) said that those who use them have a (usually significant) advantage over those who dont.

I'm not quite sure how you didn't grasp that, I'm inclined to agree with you trolling here.
PLEASE go back through this thread and read my posts before commenting, both you and Arbich are clearly the trolls here.

I have already stated mutliple times now that I agree that you get an advantage from using comms.. that is part of the point I was making and Arbich here not understanding English is not an excuse to be special or my fault, someone in this thread whined about the fact that they cannot find groups without comms and I agree that it hinders a lot of people in competitive RvR.

I will not be replying in this topic again, just toxicity, everywhere.

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Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: Healing RR gains

Post#42 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:03 am

Ghostwalker wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:57 pm
Tolerance wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:15 pm
Ghostwalker wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:01 pm

wow now you're actually abusing me... interesting tactic.

I am English, born here raised here, whats your point exactly?
His point is that you are completely missing his point.

He did not say comms were required, but he (rightfully) said that those who use them have a (usually significant) advantage over those who dont.

I'm not quite sure how you didn't grasp that, I'm inclined to agree with you trolling here.
PLEASE go back through this thread and read my posts before commenting, both you and Arbich are clearly the trolls here.

I have already stated mutliple times now that I agree that you get an advantage from using comms.. that is part of the point I was making and Arbich here not understanding English is not an excuse to be special or my fault, someone in this thread whined about the fact that they cannot find groups without comms and I agree that it hinders a lot of people in competitive RvR.

I will not be replying in this topic again, just toxicity, everywhere.
You are quite sensitive, when someone disagrees, arguing might not be your thing.

Having competitive gear for pvp and doing competitive pvp are two pair of shoes.

Without coms you can win in pvp, no doubt.

To do competitive pvp you have to use the same toolset as your enemy or you will be at a disadvantage by default and therefore voicecom is a given.
Pug 6vs6 sc for example are not competitive. Random groups, apart from synced queue of guildies^^, where no team setup can be build, are in no way competitive.
Playing in a premade isn't competitive in itself either. You only build a group but it tells nothing about team setup and level of communication.

There is nothing wrong with doing no competitive pvp, you can still play to win and try to play well as a group, even without coms. It's just a different level of gameplay.
Dying is no option.

emiliorv
Suspended
Posts: 1295

Re: Healing RR gains

Post#43 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:16 am

Please lets back to TOPIC

The point is:
-Solo healer spreading hots on random for "fluff heals" get no reward.
-Solo dps spreading dots on random for "fluff dps" get reward.

-Grouped healer healing out of grp get no reward.
-Grouped dps doing dps on other grp target get reward.

Lets forget the risk/reward argument please...drop a instant aoe dot on zerg from a RDPS is not really a risky action...

Im not saying that the system is wrong, but with this system as a healer is better drop dome dots (while your grp is ok) than heal your realmmates....healers must be rewarded for healing...cmon at least to heal other WB members outside your grp...

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Ototo
Posts: 1012

Re: Healing RR gains

Post#44 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:27 am

emiliorv wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:16 am Please lets back to TOPIC

The point is:
-Solo healer spreading hots on random for "fluff heals" get no reward.
-Solo dps spreading dots on random for "fluff dps" get reward.

-Grouped healer healing out of grp get no reward.
-Grouped dps doing dps on other grp target get reward.

Lets forget the risk/reward argument please...drop a instant aoe dot on zerg from a RDPS is not really a risky action...

Im not saying that the system is wrong, but with this system as a healer is better drop dome dots (while your grp is ok) than heal your realmmates....healers must be rewarded for healing...cmon at least to heal other WB members outside your grp...
As I said, I read Natherul post like this: They do get renown for the heal per-se, not for the killings that the healed character gets. In a situation without kills, the healer gets renown and the tank and DPS get nothing. Also rr reward being based I dmg dealt means that the tank, if s/he's a good one and basically spamming skills that protect but deal no damage nor heal like Guard or Challenge, will always be the one with the less renown gain, period.

If I'm wrong in any statement above, please correct me.
Spoiler:

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Vayra
Posts: 577

Re: Healing RR gains

Post#45 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:09 am

Ototo wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:27 am
emiliorv wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:16 am Please lets back to TOPIC

The point is:
-Solo healer spreading hots on random for "fluff heals" get no reward.
-Solo dps spreading dots on random for "fluff dps" get reward.

-Grouped healer healing out of grp get no reward.
-Grouped dps doing dps on other grp target get reward.

Lets forget the risk/reward argument please...drop a instant aoe dot on zerg from a RDPS is not really a risky action...

Im not saying that the system is wrong, but with this system as a healer is better drop dome dots (while your grp is ok) than heal your realmmates....healers must be rewarded for healing...cmon at least to heal other WB members outside your grp...
As I said, I read Natherul post like this: They do get renown for the heal per-se, not for the killings that the healed character gets.

If I'm wrong in any statement above, please correct me.
The thing is, that argument makes no sense in context. If it doesn't apply to solo dps, it doesn't apply to solo healers either. If it applies to solo healers it applies to solo dps. So if you maintain that solo healers should be happy with getting contribution for the zone as a reward for healing out of party, you must also maintain that solo DPS should be happy to only get contribution for the zone as a reward for dps'ing outside a party.


edit: posted a bit too soon:
In a situation without kills, the healer gets renown and the tank and DPS get nothing. Also rr reward being based I dmg dealt means that the tank, if s/he's a good one and basically spamming skills that protect but deal no damage nor heal like Guard or Challenge, will always be the one with the less renown gain, period.
In which situation would a healer healing get renown if there were no kills? That has literally not been the case since a few months after the game originally launched as healers were cheesing renown by healing self-damage from sorcs or fall damage. The way healers got renown from healing on live was as follows (I've explained this before in this thread): Once someone gets a kill, a percentage of the renown they get from that kill goes into a pool, the more renown earned, the bigger the pool (the pool also went away with time). When anyone heals that player they get a portion of that pool based on how much they healed, split with their group. Nowhere does not getting kills lead to renown being earned by healers for healing. The way this was abusable was that as a healer in a group, your renown from that pool was split 6 ways, while the renown a solo healer earned was not. This has an easy solution in reducing it to 1/6th for any solo healer so they don't get increased rewards over grouped healers (though by the same token, solo dps should get their portion of renown for kills reduced to 1/6th as well so they're not rewarded more than grouped dps).
Last edited by Vayra on Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Forkrul - DoK
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Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: Healing RR gains

Post#46 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:11 am

Ototo wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:27 am
As I said, I read Natherul post like this: They do get renown for the heal per-se, not for the killings that the healed character gets. In a situation without kills, the healer gets renown and the tank and DPS get nothing. Also rr reward being based I dmg dealt means that the tank, if s/he's a good one and basically spamming skills that protect but deal no damage nor heal like Guard or Challenge, will always be the one with the less renown gain, period.

If I'm wrong in any statement above, please correct me.
Where do I start? :lol:

As long as nobody dies, the healer won't get any renown at all. Healing itself doesn't give renown, when the healed player doesn't contribute to kills, e.g. the enemy survives and escapes.

The healing rp pool is significantly smaller than the kill renown ppl. Therefore does a solo healer, following a solo dd in order to heal, waste his time. Even if the solo dd would have lost the fight (e.g. 1vs1 with another dd) without heals, the dd earns much more.

You are correct on the tank statement. Support classes are not rewarded.
Dying is no option.

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Ototo
Posts: 1012

Re: Healing RR gains

Post#47 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:24 am

Vayra wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:09 am
Spoiler:
Ototo wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:27 am
emiliorv wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:16 am Please lets back to TOPIC

The point is:
-Solo healer spreading hots on random for "fluff heals" get no reward.
-Solo dps spreading dots on random for "fluff dps" get reward.

-Grouped healer healing out of grp get no reward.
-Grouped dps doing dps on other grp target get reward.

Lets forget the risk/reward argument please...drop a instant aoe dot on zerg from a RDPS is not really a risky action...

Im not saying that the system is wrong, but with this system as a healer is better drop dome dots (while your grp is ok) than heal your realmmates....healers must be rewarded for healing...cmon at least to heal other WB members outside your grp...
As I said, I read Natherul post like this: They do get renown for the heal per-se, not for the killings that the healed character gets.

If I'm wrong in any statement above, please correct me.
The thing is, that argument makes no sense in context. If it doesn't apply to solo dps, it doesn't apply to solo healers either. If it applies to solo healers it applies to solo dps. So if you maintain that solo healers should be happy with getting contribtion for the zone as a reward for healing out of party, you must also maintain that solo DPS should be happy to only get contribution for the zone as a reward for dps'ing outside a party.
For the third and I hope last time, unless that I'm wrong in which case correct me: You DO GET rewarded by both zone contribution and renown for the healing per-se. If that argument makes no sense, the opposite neither does: Solo DPSs don't get full reward either. The renown is based in the part of the dmg dealt that resulted in the death. Only killing 100% of a player will net full reward.

I play tanks. We get nothing but inglorious deaths, not even attention in this comparison. As tank expect to level very slowly pass 60. Like seriously, very, Very, VERY slowly. Do you see me opening a thread accusing healers of stealing renown from guards so they can heal other people out of my party? Or DPSs cause they can't do sh*t without me challenging? No, you don't cause that's a misrepresentation of reality. If you play your part, you lock zones, period. If you don't want to heal cause you can only get renown from heals and not from other people kills, just don't heal others. I'm not anyone to force people to play this or that way.
Spoiler:

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Vayra
Posts: 577

Re: Healing RR gains

Post#48 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:33 am

Ototo wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:24 am
Vayra wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:09 am
Spoiler:
Ototo wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:27 am

As I said, I read Natherul post like this: They do get renown for the heal per-se, not for the killings that the healed character gets.

If I'm wrong in any statement above, please correct me.
The thing is, that argument makes no sense in context. If it doesn't apply to solo dps, it doesn't apply to solo healers either. If it applies to solo healers it applies to solo dps. So if you maintain that solo healers should be happy with getting contribtion for the zone as a reward for healing out of party, you must also maintain that solo DPS should be happy to only get contribution for the zone as a reward for dps'ing outside a party.
For the third and I hope last time, unless that I'm wrong in which case correct me: You DO GET rewarded by both zone contribution and renown for the healing per-se. If that argument makes no sense, the opposite neither does: Solo DPSs don't get full reward either. The renown is based in the part of the dmg dealt that resulted in the death. Only killing 100% of a player will net full reward.
You DO get nothing but contribution for out of group (or solo) healing. The only thing that gives renown for out of group play is damage. If I heal someone not in my group getting a kill, I get a bit of contribution and 0 direct renown, while the dps I kept alive get contribution and anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand renown depending on relative RR and if the target has been killed recently. Whereas if I had pitched in with damage and let the dps potentially die we would have split the direct renown from the kill based on damage done. That is the problem. If I heal that dps while and after killing, that should give me direct renown.

For tanks, I have no idea how to fix it, you do less damage so you get less damage contribution, can you guard out of group (been a long time since I played my BG)? If so that should give some contribution based on damage reduced. One thing, though, you are generally harder to kill than a dps, so even though you do less damage per second, staying alive longer allows you to potentially do more total damage.
Vayra - Sorc
Forkrul - DoK
Kalyth - BG

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Ototo
Posts: 1012

Re: Healing RR gains

Post#49 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:44 am

Vayra wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:33 am can you guard out of group (been a long time since I played my BG)? you are generally harder to kill than a dps, so even though you do less damage per second, staying alive longer allows you to potentially do more total damage.
You can't guard out of party, but you literally get nothing from doing it. If you think that you can deal more damage cause you can survive more, clearly been way too long since. Where do you think that the survivability comes from? I have maybe 400 strength in my KotBS, which is a pretty damn pathetic dmg figure, but I'm capped in resists, tough, 100% armor reduction, minus 10% to be crit, etc... I can't kill a fly, but that's not my job.
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Vayra
Posts: 577

Re: Healing RR gains

Post#50 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:05 pm

Ototo wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:44 am
Vayra wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:33 am can you guard out of group (been a long time since I played my BG)? you are generally harder to kill than a dps, so even though you do less damage per second, staying alive longer allows you to potentially do more total damage.
You can't guard out of party, but you literally get nothing from doing it. If you think that you can deal more damage cause you can survive more, clearly been way too long since. Where do you think that the survivability comes from? I have maybe 400 strength in my KotBS, which is a pretty damn pathetic dmg figure, but I'm capped in resists, tough, 100% armor reduction, minus 10% to be crit, etc... I can't kill a fly, but that's not my job.
Thought you couldn't, but wasn't 100% sure and I'm at work so can't test. And yeah, that would make it very hard to get solo renown as a tank. But that is also a group spec, not a solo spec. You could spec for more damage and slightly lower survivability to do better solo, but I don't know how well that works on KotBS (I know IBs could do it in the past). So yeah, no clue how to properly reward tanks for contribution solo other than as a worse dps.
Vayra - Sorc
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