AoE damage

[Jastojan]

For example WL is melee and has realy BIG burst but WL does not pay for it. Sorc has a big burst but Sorc pays much for it. And I wrote nothing about disrupts... did u ever try to make full rotation on a healer without a disrupt? Almost impossible. But I get almost every dot even from low lvl AMs everytime (without disrupt). So it is not so simple as it looks to dmg as a caster.

WL does 'pay for it' in the form of a pet that can be killed within a few GCDs, lol.

Sorcerer backlash is really nothing too potent outside of solo pug environments; good healers can keep you afloat with ease and alleviate the backlash with some HoTs for the majority of the time.

You cannot be serious... Oh his pet I almost forget to mention that this texture breaking creature can fly... yes. Realy big price for a dmg burst...
You write "good healers can keep you afloat with ease and alleviate the backlash with some HoTs for the majority of the time", yep. But you dont have the healer behind your back everytime, everywhere you go. WL can be ok even without the healer. And I will not continue to write about this because it looks like you can not imagine how big and unfair the backlash is and can make very big impact to the game... I stopped playing Sorc because of it, destro lacks of healers, so I decide to play heal (after bad experience with SW, then Sorc...).

[Ramasee]

snip
They have lower base damage compared to Sorc/BW.

To back this claim, you should post the damage formulae for the abilities in question

sadly i dont know how to find them but you can look in game or on builder to see the base tooltip damage and compare it.
snip

The builder has essentially placeholder values. And the base tooltips in game even while naked still take into account your base stats. This is if the client's tooltip even matches the server.

To find the true damage formula you have to reverse engineer it based off the damage you see. Hit a target, remove 100 intelligence, hit a target, notice difference. Hit a target, change weapon dps but don't change strength, hit a target notice difference.

For example:

Demolition (mara) - 20/150 + 1.5 WDPS + 0.174 STR
Fireball (bw) - 80/600 + 0.0 WDPS + 0.9 INT
Scorched Earth (bw) - 25/187 + 0.0 WDPS + 0.2 INT
Spiral Fletched Arrow - 30/225 + 1.5 WDPS + 0.3 BAL
Split Arrows SFA - 21/158 + 1.05 WDPS + 0.21 BAL

[peterthepan3]

For example WL is melee and has realy BIG burst but WL does not pay for it. Sorc has a big burst but Sorc pays much for it. And I wrote nothing about disrupts... did u ever try to make full rotation on a healer without a disrupt? Almost impossible. But I get almost every dot even from low lvl AMs everytime (without disrupt). So it is not so simple as it looks to dmg as a caster.

WL does 'pay for it' in the form of a pet that can be killed within a few GCDs, lol.

Sorcerer backlash is really nothing too potent outside of solo pug environments; good healers can keep you afloat with ease and alleviate the backlash with some HoTs for the majority of the time.

You cannot be serious... Oh his pet I almost forget to mention that this texture breaking creature can fly... yes. Realy big price for a dmg burst...
You write "good healers can keep you afloat with ease and alleviate the backlash with some HoTs for the majority of the time", yep. But you dont have the healer behind your back everytime, everywhere you go. WL can be ok even without the healer. And I will not continue to write about this because it looks like you can not imagine how big and unfair the backlash is and can make very big impact to the game... I stopped playing Sorc because of it, destro lacks of healers, so I decide to play heal (after bad experience with SW, then Sorc...).

You can kill the pet within a few GCDs if you are so inclined, and pet breaking X/Y axis is something that doesn't solely pertain to WL pet and doesn't negate from above point.

If you are running with healers and tanks (as you should be), then...yes - yes you will have a healer on your back 'everytime, everywhere you go'.

If you are honestly comparing Sorc vs WL 1V1 then I have no words: bar Korze, noone else has managed to make a Sorc spec that can counter WLs - and this is totally fine because the game isn't balanced around 1v1.

Sorc isn't the class for you if you are hellbent on playing solo in unorganised environments (you mention 'lack of healers'), so I think you have made the right decision. In order for a Sorc to shine, you need (just as you do with Choppas) healers and tanks to help negate your mechanic's backlash, so that you can put out incredible amounts of damage.

[Ramasee]

For example WL is melee and has realy BIG burst but WL does not pay for it. Sorc has a big burst but Sorc pays much for it. And I wrote nothing about disrupts... did u ever try to make full rotation on a healer without a disrupt? Almost impossible. But I get almost every dot even from low lvl AMs everytime (without disrupt). So it is not so simple as it looks to dmg as a caster.

WL does 'pay for it' in the form of a pet that can be killed within a few GCDs, lol.

Sorcerer backlash is really nothing too potent outside of solo pug environments; good healers can keep you afloat with ease and alleviate the backlash with some HoTs for the majority of the time.

You cannot be serious... Oh his pet I almost forget to mention that this texture breaking creature can fly... yes. Realy big price for a dmg burst...
You write "good healers can keep you afloat with ease and alleviate the backlash with some HoTs for the majority of the time", yep. But you dont have the healer behind your back everytime, everywhere you go. WL can be ok even without the healer. And I will not continue to write about this because it looks like you can not imagine how big and unfair the backlash is and can make very big impact to the game... I stopped playing Sorc because of it, destro lacks of healers, so I decide to play heal (after bad experience with SW, then Sorc...).

Sorc gains +35% magical critical chance and +100% critical damage at the cost of a 35% chance to hit yourself for 750 morale damage. Jon stated that outside of solo pug environments this is no big deal. He is correct, and that amount of damage becomes even less the higher your gear gets; specially when you account for just how much extra damage the benefit of their mechanic provides.

Yes sorcs/bws are the most group dependent class in the entire game and I would never recommend someone to play them without a group of friends/guildmates.

[Sulorie]

But melee have armor penetration from WS and gear/tactics. Magic casters dont have resist penetration.
Just want to add it

Yes they do

They have access to resist debuffs from various sources

Pretty much like armor debuffs, no?

[Jastojan]

WL does 'pay for it' in the form of a pet that can be killed within a few GCDs, lol.

Sorcerer backlash is really nothing too potent outside of solo pug environments; good healers can keep you afloat with ease and alleviate the backlash with some HoTs for the majority of the time.

You cannot be serious... Oh his pet I almost forget to mention that this texture breaking creature can fly... yes. Realy big price for a dmg burst...
You write "good healers can keep you afloat with ease and alleviate the backlash with some HoTs for the majority of the time", yep. But you dont have the healer behind your back everytime, everywhere you go. WL can be ok even without the healer. And I will not continue to write about this because it looks like you can not imagine how big and unfair the backlash is and can make very big impact to the game... I stopped playing Sorc because of it, destro lacks of healers, so I decide to play heal (after bad experience with SW, then Sorc...).

You can kill the pet within a few GCDs if you are so inclined, and pet breaking X/Y axis is something that doesn't solely pertain to WL pet and doesn't negate from above point.

If you are running with healers and tanks (as you should be), then...yes - yes you will have a healer on your back 'everytime, everywhere you go'.

If you are honestly comparing Sorc vs WL 1V1 then I have no words: bar Korze, noone else has managed to make a Sorc spec that can counter WLs - and this is totally fine because the game isn't balanced around 1v1.

Sorc isn't the class for you if you are hellbent on playing solo in unorganised environments (you mention 'lack of healers'), so I think you have made the right decision. In order for a Sorc to shine, you need (just as you do with Choppas) healers and tanks to help negate your mechanic's backlash, so that you can put out incredible amounts of damage.

I don´t know why you need to react on every comment when you could lead your own monologue because it is clear you did not read or you need to offense/ attack me? Tell me, where did I write that I want to go solo mostly? If I want to go solo only why did I create a healer? To stay in the middle of the battle and heal myself? Where did I compare Sorc vs WL in 1v1? You are putting your own words in my mouth and predict wrong. I compared the classes because of the burst (melee vs spell - as the reaction to the author of the topic) no matter if it is WL vs Sorc duel or what you mean. And back to the backlash. The backlash is unfair in many cases and it is my opinion (of course) I wont change. I will be ok with backlash if the backlash will hit when YOUR spell hit (not disrupted one) and the backlash could be fair if:
a) the backlash was equal to the spell you used (or in percentage of damage dealt),
b) the -750 dmg tick will be the max possible tick you CAN get.
So you could get backlash from X to 750 dmg (equal to the spell you use or dmg you deal). This sounds much more fair to me.
And all I wanted to say with this aaaaall what I wrooooote before was that the spell dmg of casters costs something and many casters have to pay for it. It is not only about numbers you deal - there is more behind it.

And yes. Sorc is not for me maybe. You are right. But not because of the "hellbent on playing solo in unorganised environments" but because of the fact I want to help the side to win... this is why I play heal.

PS: Last weeks I was i many WBs with less than 5 healers in WB - it is 1 healer for each party. And many times many of them were not 40 lvl... they could make their best but... so yes, there are many situations you can miss heal even if you are in WB.

[peterthepan3]

1) You talk about Sorc mechanic being particularly punishing for you because 'you don't have a healer at your back, everywhere you go'; from this, I deduced that you do not play with healers regularly - aka pug/solo environments. Spare me the 'stop offending me' stuff.

2) A Sorc can still help your 'side to win'; you just need to play with a group who can facilitate to you killing everything in sight, and not just hope and pray for heals in unorganised environments.

3) You keep comparing the WL to the Sorc, claiming that a WL doesn't need a heal while a Sorc does: this is only true in ganking/solo environments, i.e. where a WL jumps in, kills, and jumps out. In every other environment (group/wb), you absolutely need healers - regardless of what class you are - in order to perform your role. This is a reason why I felt you were talking about Sorc in unorganised/solo environments.

4) You are referring to pug/unorganised warbands; no serious WB would run with 5 healers for 24 people. This is also further proof as to why I believe you are talking about Sorc from a pug PoV, i.e where Backlash is felt more accutely. Running around in WBs with 5 healers for 24 people as a Sorcerer who probably isn't being guarded is going to skew your results, and make you think things that aren't the case when you optimise your setups.

[Jastojan]

1) You talk about Sorc mechanic being particularly punishing for you because 'you don't have a healer at your back, everywhere you go'; from this, I deduced that you do not play with healers regularly - aka pug/solo environments. Spare me the 'stop offending me' stuff.

2) A Sorc can still help your 'side to win'; you just need to play with a group who can facilitate to you killing everything in sight, and not just hope and pray for heals in unorganised environments.

3) You keep comparing the WL to the Sorc, claiming that a WL doesn't need a heal while a Sorc does: this is only true in ganking/solo environments, i.e. where a WL jumps in, kills, and jumps out. In every other environment (group/wb), you absolutely need healers - regardless of what class you are - in order to perform your role. This is a reason why I felt you were talking about Sorc in unorganised/solo environments.

4) You are referring to pug/unorganised warbands; no serious WB would run with 5 healers for 24 people. This is also further proof as to why I believe you are talking about Sorc from a pug PoV, i.e where Backlash is felt more accutely. Running around in WBs with 5 healers for 24 people as a Sorcerer who probably isn't being guarded is going to skew your results, and make you think things that aren't the case when you optimise your setups.

If you won´t put your words in my mouth I will not spare... realy don´t want to waste time to vindicate my words. I think you know what I wanted to write and there is no need to write more about WL which is "protected animal" here in RoR it seems.

[TenTonHammer]

But melee have armor penetration from WS and gear/tactics. Magic casters dont have resist penetration.
Just want to add it

Yes they do

They have access to resist debuffs from various sources

Pretty much like armor debuffs, no?

Yeah in the lines of how Mara has access to an armor debuff or partial armor ignore option more than like choppa whose reliant on an armor debuff from an external source, don’t know if that’s what you meant

[roadkillrobin]

RES kan be Aoe debuffed quit easily by a multitude of classes, so claiming WS as an pro argument is quit invalid. There's almost no AoE armor debuffs the game.
The major pro of weapon based AoE melee physical dps is that it's not affected by HTL. Were the logic completly fail is with ranged physical skills like on SW, Engie and SH. There's a reason why Tinkerer skills was STR based.
Maybe all ranged physical AoE's should have a interupt chance of like 10% on defence to compensate for the HTL issue.