BOs mechanics suggestion

[nailinthehead]

It has been bothering me for a long time to make BOs mechanics more interesting, require more planning and tactics and at the same time split the zerg a little. After some thinking it struck me, that fundamental mechanics already exists in some form - I'm thinking about wards and resurces here. So here is the basic concept:

1. Each BO, after locking it, produces a resource which has to be delivered to holders keep;
2. Picking up the resource grants a buff persisting as long as resource exists to the carrier and all people present at the BOs at that moment for as long as they stay within 100ft from the carrier;
3. Successful delivery grants the keep a ward unique for the BO which produced the resource;
4. Gaining wards from all BOs grants the keep 1 star;
5. N-th ward is granted only when n-1 BOs assigned to already granted wards are currently hold by given realm plus the BO which produced currently returned resource. An exception would be granting 1st ward, which would require to hold the 1st BO;
Explaination: lets say the realm want to get 4th ward - upon returning the 4th resource given realm has to hold at least 3 BOs including the most recently locked;
6. When the star is gained, wards are reset and the thing repeats.
7. BOs are locked only when defenders are present;

Rewards:
there would be no BO ticks, but all people present at the BOs would gain some amount of XP and RP when the ward is granted. My suggestion is around 1k RP and 10k XP but it can be tweaked as needed. The same amount would be granted to everyone having the resource buff and not present at the BO;

Similar mechanics could be applied during keep fights - gaining wards by defenders could repair door for lets say 10% and by attackers - increase ram dmg by 5%;

I'm aware, that it would have to be tweaked for T1 to make it work. I guess this idea don't cover all issues but I think it is a good starting point for discussion.

[Fenris78]

Just saw this topic, I'll paste my suggestions here to be more visible. What you're suggesting looks good, and inline with my thoughts here (simplier than yours I think :p ) :

Maybe you should try "locking" mechanics of Scenarii like Graveyard for RvR ; having 2 or more BOs at same time will "reset" flags, give amount of RR/XP/Contrib depending of number of BOs taken at the same time, and ranking keep accordingly.

Then, flags gone Neutral and couldnt be retaken immediately by same realm, allowing opposite side to make tactical moves to retake freed BOs.

This way you "force" people to play smart, splitting their force to take a maximum of BOs at the same time, instead of circling endlessly.
You allow sneaky caps (since opponents are not affected by BOs cooldown), and incitate defense (you cant AFK with active capturing mechanic - like in Fortresses flags, you will need to click and hold on a flag to capture, more people = quicker cap - and the cooldown between 2 controlling attemps), while encouraging people to cap as much BOs at a time to ensure maximum gains.

Basically you will gain nothing with only 1 BO (like atm), but gain a contribution+ranking when you capture the 2nd flag. Allow a timer of some seconds (15-30s ?) before scoring, and a bonus when capturing more than 2 flags at once (further increasing incentives to spread and coordinate moves).
After a cap, rinse and repeat tactic, but with locking timer you'll have to prepare for incs, but since you are not forced to stay at flag, this opens new moves for ambush/deceit, without altering intended gameplay.

Also, I would suggest lowering penalty for loosing control of 2 BOs : currently all your progress (yellow bar) is wiped the instant you down to 1 BO held.
It will make more sense to only lose progress depending of how long you held 2+ BOs, and how much BOs you loose at once.

I think it makes sense with my above proposed changes to BO controlling, since there will be a certain timeframe between holding BOs (they will reset after a "lock").


TL:DR :
1. Bring simultaneous capturing of RvR flags, like in Graveyard/Forge Scenarii.
2. You have to actively capture flags by clicking on them (more people interacting = faster cap)
3. When captured, flag stay under control exactly like now.
4. As soon as 2 or more flags are captured and held in some timeframe, everyone contributed will score + keep rank (2 BO = normal contrib, 3+ BOs = better contrib/rank)
5. Right after the contribution "tick", flags reset, with a "no capture" timer for scoring realm
6. Derank after dropping to 0-1 BO is in proportion of time/number of flags held before cap.


Thanks for your reviews, hope our suggestions may be discussed further.

[Tesq]

rvr rewamp aim:
-split both realms zergs equally all over the map
-must encourage to fight for and over flag
-must not penalizing blobbing
-must matter also post keep capture

flag system
1- global Timer for all battle objective
2- min of 2 min open flag windown / 10 min of lock (these apply as one timer simultaneously to all flags)
3- 10 sec tap timer
4- outnumbering side require 1 flag more than the other for have the same contribution after a certain AAO ( 1 flag less for every 25% pop more than other realm.
5- flag defender are rewarded when flag get lock (so only every 2 min) + bonus

Explaination
how does it work?

-have all 4 flags open only for 2 min make impossible swarn 1 flag after another 1 snowball effect all the map as it will be too late to catch all. The 10 min windows is for both re position troop all over the map aswell to try physically remove enemy from flag locations, yet while in this 10 min windows flags remain locked so even if zerg snowball around he may get 1 flag or 2 but it will be block to thhose for 10 min meanwhile other faction while zerg move away can re position on all the other 3 flags and 4th aswell.

-This is also boosted by make a 10 sec timer for tap flag. This can be tweek by increase cap timer to 15 sec or 30 sec or increase lock window for exemple to 15 min.

-What if both sides spread equally all over the map but 1 side have higher numbers so on all flags? what if other pop is 25% more than you? easy!! for every 25% emulator WILL IGNORE 1 flag contribution to rankig. This way overpopulted realm must hold for base 1 BO for every 25% they have more than enemy realm. Aka they are force to hold one uncontested flag every time for exemple but ord and des figth equally on all other 3 flags ( or 2 or 1 ).

-Defenders will get reward based on "flags lock", the reward is a base value + bonus calculated on kill made on flags so it reward ppl every 2 min in 2 min. Whi this reward system is different from the 6 sec tick? because fight will have to happen on flags and you will earn the tick only if you survived a time window calculated on a open contest state. Currently the tick rewarded al the time and always over time so the risk of getting killed was a lot less potential than be kil just before teh 2 min timer ( 1 tick after 2 min vs 20 tick in 2 min).

-Offensive side post keep capure must controll and hold 3 flags alltogheter in the same way as metioned above this mean that hte process of finish the lock could be harder (and ther is always the chance to loose the keep...)
This part is important because slow down the enemy (in hope of some reinforcement to came ) is an imporant part of war strategy.

expected behaviour
1-one side will out-nunumbering and zerg the other side
2-the other at some will decide to spread avoiding main zerg focus on flag
3-at this poitn zerg will be cut out of flag ranking and will be forced to spread too

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

4-after both realm base meccanic application, the best realms warlords will start to create main holding forces on flags ( 4 so, 1 for each flag) PLUS some small groups between flags or into strategic points (so for exemple 3 supp group between flags) to always have number superiority when 1 flag is atttcked ( and opposite relam will do teh same aswell to try gain numebr superiority where is required).

exemple 2 party on 2 flags and 1 party between em to reinforce one of the 2 flagw in case of need.

disclaimer:
-the current system we are using right now IS no different from live single flag lock system and thus suffer from the same flaw, zerg side or the more numberous zerg side of the two can simple PICK the flag that want WHEN it want.
With this system pick what you want when you wont wont be possible anymore everything need to be pick all togheter ( we kill the choice regarding WHEN ) or very close to it. Therefore this should fix a flaw in flag system which we consistently had from live implementation.

[DaWolf]

Just saw this topic, I'll paste my suggestions here to be more visible. What you're suggesting looks good, and inline with my thoughts here (simplier than yours I think :p ) :

Maybe you should try "locking" mechanics of Scenarii like Graveyard for RvR ; having 2 or more BOs at same time will "reset" flags, give amount of RR/XP/Contrib depending of number of BOs taken at the same time, and ranking keep accordingly.

Then, flags gone Neutral and couldnt be retaken immediately by same realm, allowing opposite side to make tactical moves to retake freed BOs.

This way you "force" people to play smart, splitting their force to take a maximum of BOs at the same time, instead of circling endlessly.
You allow sneaky caps (since opponents are not affected by BOs cooldown), and incitate defense (you cant AFK with active capturing mechanic - like in Fortresses flags, you will need to click and hold on a flag to capture, more people = quicker cap - and the cooldown between 2 controlling attemps), while encouraging people to cap as much BOs at a time to ensure maximum gains.

Basically you will gain nothing with only 1 BO (like atm), but gain a contribution+ranking when you capture the 2nd flag. Allow a timer of some seconds (15-30s ?) before scoring, and a bonus when capturing more than 2 flags at once (further increasing incentives to spread and coordinate moves).
After a cap, rinse and repeat tactic, but with locking timer you'll have to prepare for incs, but since you are not forced to stay at flag, this opens new moves for ambush/deceit, without altering intended gameplay.

Also, I would suggest lowering penalty for loosing control of 2 BOs : currently all your progress (yellow bar) is wiped the instant you down to 1 BO held.
It will make more sense to only lose progress depending of how long you held 2+ BOs, and how much BOs you loose at once.

I think it makes sense with my above proposed changes to BO controlling, since there will be a certain timeframe between holding BOs (they will reset after a "lock").


TL:DR :
1. Bring simultaneous capturing of RvR flags, like in Graveyard/Forge Scenarii.
2. You have to actively capture flags by clicking on them (more people interacting = faster cap)
3. When captured, flag stay under control exactly like now.
4. As soon as 2 or more flags are captured and held in some timeframe, everyone contributed will score + keep rank (2 BO = normal contrib, 3+ BOs = better contrib/rank)
5. Right after the contribution "tick", flags reset, with a "no capture" timer for scoring realm
6. Derank after dropping to 0-1 BO is in proportion of time/number of flags held before cap.


Thanks for your reviews, hope our suggestions may be discussed further.

As said before : +1 for this.

[Yaliskah]

@Tesq.

Even your proposition is interesting, there are some point i really don't share with, and especially one.Any BO locking system.

Gonna explain why this wont help and point consequencies.

If you played on live ( and you did), or if you played before the full revamp of RoR ORvR, Bo were lockeds.

What was happening?

In T1.

Nordland was the only opened area, and according BOS were locked for 10 mins, everyone had no interest for BOs. Fight was focussed in a single line between both warcamp, and sometime, some players were going to take the unlock BO, tu return asap in the fight line. I don't invent anything, thats a fact. No one had any interst for BOs. But let say it is T1.

In T2+.

We have 4 BOs. If they lock all in the same time, what happens between 2 unlocks? total blob? Warcamp camping? Everybody waits for unlocks? Free fight? If lock are independant and not in the same time what happens? Players focus on unlocked objectives i guess. This will lead to a massive concentration progressively : The less unlocked BO you will have, the more "zerg" you will create around those available.

With last system (no lock system), some areas like Eataine, CW, Talabec/Highpass or Caledor have seen a very important change. instead of seeing a single line of fight between both WArcamps, players have spread all around the map.

If you lock BOs, be assured 80% will think, well, lets continu to blob, someone else gonna do the job.

In a single sentence : Lock/reduce/discard Battle Objectives concentrate mechanically players around less hotspots. ANd nobody wants this. Thats factual, and demonstrated ingame in the past.

Now come the interest of fighting around BO since last change.

As said, some enhancement are coming to re-introduce this dose of "personnal" motivation needed to keep them. I explain.

Instead of providing ticks, A BO will produce an amount of X supplies every Y minutes.

Now about propositions you and others do in general.

Don't feel hurted if we don't give a chance to test this one or this one. The main reason is it takes lot of time (the new version of ORvR has taken more than a year and isn't fully complete atm), and more than the logic of the proposition, we/you have to focus on drawbacks.

[Tesq]

Mmmm

i explained above why sich will be diff (single x4 lock vs 1 syncro lock) from live also its a matter of regulate the lock timer. The less windown of time you have to cap flags the more you need to spread, in live:

- was always open even if faction controlled till oppo faction decided to click it, then start a 3 min timer to re claim it and the a 15 min lock.
-my system work totallthe opposit flag si ALWAYS under an open timer or a lock window regardless faction who controll it, aka you cant leave the flag for 15 min plus additonal tiem if no one click it, flag reset after lock time (maybe this wasnt clear forgive me)

Enemy side have to kill you before flag unlock because THE timer start IMMIDIATELY after flag unlock who is there can click it and claim it and eventually relock it after 2 min ( in live the side could not re lock flag he alresy controlled)

It 's not like live, there is always a timer going on and all open and unlock according to that, so you have to adapt and play by that, this dont work like live; flags post lock time remained open undefinetly..this system dont allow that in live the WHEN was not kill enough here there is nto room for decide when attack something, everything i schedule.

If you have 1-2 min to cap flag you need to be alredy there and be alredy physically on the flag you use the 5-10 min of lock to fight (or reposition troops) over flag and the 1-2 min to cap and def.

Maybe instead 2/10 do 1- 2min open window and 5min lock , this way ppl will keep more focus on flag, anyway what has emerged on 3 proposal in this thread has been that zerg can form and exploit the WHEN of flag pick. Even if you dont want test my idea you will still have to do something regarding that if you aim to solve the problem.

The point to kill tbe zerg is also make flag management so important that you could lock a zone with it so that zerg cant simply roll over till it bores you.
This sich should only work for undedog (old rank 6 lock but only for underdog ).

But all things should be deployed togheter

-syncro lock
-domination for underdog
-test phase
-timer adjustment
A- flag cap
B- open flaf window
C- lock timer

-additional prob some maps should see flags move a bit and re located you cited emp t1, well remove festenplaz flag and put it on the beach then reput the 4th flag near the original location but clsoer in line of air towards order wc and norther .

Nb: you should not considering specific region problems as they are general system problem, for exemple how you avoid zerg in kv??? Before portal it was impossible that was not a problem of the flag system its a map problem still its a half solved prob unless keep are inverted similar to DW.


Regarding code well yes i bow to that if it's too much time consuming or hard for current ppl working actively there is nothing i can say but that has always been my position altought i didnt think that put 1 continuously timer going on with out any form of condition would had been that hard in the specific.

[Gorkdork]

There is also simpler solution that would reward holding BO.

Make BO ticks return but on diminishing return.

You capture BO and start getting ticks that start higher then they used to (like 100-200) and degrade with each tick. After about 1-3 min you stop getting rewards. Now, when other player gets to that BO, they get their 1-3 min of ticks. You could also lock it so you can't gain rewards from same BO again unless you did your "shift" on different BO. This would force people to not camp one BO but circle people around. It would encourage active play rather then just sitting on 1 BO afking.

[Musica]

I'm just throwing this out but, maybe you haven't noticed but the afking mechanic became so instilled into people, that they are now actively afking in warbands.

There's a bunch of people who join the warband and then afk during keep defense, keep take, everything.

Don't bring ticks back, while they may have been a reward for active players, bad habits are really easy to pick up and it's a trend that has to be addressed.

While changes may be needed to the BO system, ticks are not the way to go.

[nailinthehead]

There is also simpler solution that would reward holding BO.

Make BO ticks return but on diminishing return.

You capture BO and start getting ticks that start higher then they used to (like 100-200) and degrade with each tick. After about 1-3 min you stop getting rewards. Now, when other player gets to that BO, they get their 1-3 min of ticks. You could also lock it so you can't gain rewards from same BO again unless you did your "shift" on different BO. This would force people to not camp one BO but circle people around. It would encourage active play rather then just sitting on 1 BO afking.

That's not a solution as it will just make the blob mindlessly float from BO to BO. The thing is to make the BO mechanics interesting and require actual tactics, planning and splitting forces, not some arcade jumping around.

[mikke]

BOs ticks should be back for T1 for sure. Now, it could take forever to get a single rank.