About Reduce AOE Damage RvR Broken

[altharion1]

To break up the blob mentality it will take both the stick and the carrot. You'd need a combined approach, that both punishes people for blobbing up, and rewards them for splitting. Options could be:

1. When more than 48 people of the same realm are within 200ft? of each other they have their wounds reduced by X%. Then X+% at 72 people. Doesn't apply in keep range/or if you have AAO over 80%

2. When more than 48 people of the same realm are within Xft of each other they have their movement speed reduced by X%. Then X+% at 72+ people. Doesn't apply in keep range/or if you have AAO over 80%

3. Pity ticks of renown on BOs stop after the first 24 people. So the 25th person that arrives has to move to a different BO to get ticks.

4. Give rewards for holding all the BOs concurrently for X period of time. This could be much faster keep ranking and/or larger renown ticks from BOs. the longer you hold them, the better it gets. So when there is a VERY dominant realm, they can push for the keep faster - where the defenders might actually have a chance of doing something. So WBs actually split to try to actively hold all BOs, instead of just zerging in a big blob between 2, or sitting on 1 BO and wating like mid BO in Praag or tavern BO in Tala land.

1 gives premade WBs the ability to fight back against larger numbers
2 allows smaller scale players and soloers a chance to avoid mega blobs
3+4 forces/encourages people to spread out over the zone onto all the objectives.

Any/All of these options could work in conjunction with the removal of the AoE cap. I don't really care about the AoE side of things.

[Rockalypse]

To break up the blob mentality it will take both the stick and the carrot. You'd need a combined approach, that both punishes people for blobbing up, and rewards them for splitting. Options could be:

1. When more than 48 people of the same realm are within 200ft? of each other they have their wounds reduced by X%. Then X+% at 72 people. Doesn't apply in keep range/or if you have AAO over 80%

2. When more than 48 people of the same realm are within Xft of each other they have their movement speed reduced by X%. Then X+% at 72+ people. Doesn't apply in keep range/or if you have AAO over 80%

3. Pity ticks of renown on BOs stop after the first 24 people. So the 25th person that arrives has to move to a different BO to get ticks.

4. Give rewards for holding all the BOs concurrently for X period of time. This could be much faster keep ranking and/or larger renown ticks from BOs. the longer you hold them, the better it gets. So when there is a VERY dominant realm, they can push for the keep faster - where the defenders might actually have a chance of doing something. So WBs actually split to try to actively hold all BOs, instead of just zerging in a big blob between 2, or sitting on 1 BO and wating like mid BO in Praag or tavern BO in Tala land.

1 gives premade WBs the ability to fight back against larger numbers
2 allows smaller scale players and soloers a chance to avoid mega blobs
3+4 forces/encourages people to spread out over the zone onto all the objectives.

Any/All of these options could work in conjunction with the removal of the AoE cap. I don't really care about the AoE side of things.

Even if it would be best solution, imagine how much of server resources it will take to create such circles around each character in zone and calculate amount of people in them every several seconds.

[nebelwerfer]

the solution is to remove aoe cap on slayers / choppars when they are red rage, yes

[Wam]

To break up the blob mentality it will take both the stick and the carrot. You'd need a combined approach, that both punishes people for blobbing up, and rewards them for splitting. Options could be:

Spoiler:

1. When more than 48 people of the same realm are within 200ft? of each other they have their wounds reduced by X%. Then X+% at 72 people. Doesn't apply in keep range/or if you have AAO over 80%

2. When more than 48 people of the same realm are within Xft of each other they have their movement speed reduced by X%. Then X+% at 72+ people. Doesn't apply in keep range/or if you have AAO over 80%

3. Pity ticks of renown on BOs stop after the first 24 people. So the 25th person that arrives has to move to a different BO to get ticks.

4. Give rewards for holding all the BOs concurrently for X period of time. This could be much faster keep ranking and/or larger renown ticks from BOs. the longer you hold them, the better it gets. So when there is a VERY dominant realm, they can push for the keep faster - where the defenders might actually have a chance of doing something. So WBs actually split to try to actively hold all BOs, instead of just zerging in a big blob between 2, or sitting on 1 BO and wating like mid BO in Praag or tavern BO in Tala land.

1 gives premade WBs the ability to fight back against larger numbers
2 allows smaller scale players and soloers a chance to avoid mega blobs
3+4 forces/encourages people to spread out over the zone onto all the objectives.

Any/All of these options could work in conjunction with the removal of the AoE cap. I don't really care about the AoE side of things.

I agree

The problem is the system rewards and encourages that style of play and it can become pretty tedious even for organised warbands that are optimized to try and take on such tasks just to know you lose certain fights because the other side is protected by the system and limited number cap, No skill, zero tactics, just mass and infinite one push yawn.

No caring about assist, no care about setup or synergy, no care about morales, no care about pulls or flanking because they don't have too, the system rewards them more for stacking on the spot in close proximity to "absorb any counter damage" as the damage is spread out amongst the mass(you cannot follow it up as its spread too thinly thanks to limited number of targets hit) so it becomes fluff damage and highly mitigated, its like almost giving them all a extra layer guard for free as a combat bonus because of close proximity and mass.

There is no hard counter to this or real punishment (also no incentive to do otherwise), besides hey just bring more guys... but what if you are outnumbered and underdog? you don't always have the option to bring more guys, so why bother playing if no hard counter... why not quit and give up and let them easy lock so you get random bags in the mail? Because this is what I saw alot of over the xmas period, underdog pug leaders would try somethings to their credit, but would be serverly outnumbered and ultimately disband over and over because they know they had no hope or chance to dent a pure zone blob so why feed.

Even the best guild wb's will get outblobbed by the system, NRM,PNP, TUP, CNTK, Bitterstones, Invasion amongst others.

People who think removal of cap favours the side with the most numbers is wrong and don't know the system, the current system buffs the side with the most numbers but it gives NOTHING, absouelty nothing in combat to the side with less numbers. Removal of it gives both sides nothing (so are equal playing field) and then fair is fair no abritary protection from the system... then the only difference is numbers/co-ordination not numbers/co-ordination/limited targets for underdog.

Postioning, flanking, poking, pulling and co-ordination would actually matter for both sides and make it more interesting instead of just mindless charging as a blob. Maybe people would actually need to use tactics and maybe spread / encircle enemy.
Maybe people will finally have a reason to split push and co-ordinate two zone locks at the same time, instead of just one main blob zone and one dead side zone... with fortresses coming closer and closer... you either going to have split push co-ordination required... or just mass blob underdog into oblivion.

I know dev's look at all aspects of the game and work on them... but this is such a core issue in two faction system, especially with such a volatile population swinging. Too many people see a momentum train/x-realm (if you can't beat them, join them) and try to overstack a population to achieve victory instead of through co-ordination.

Current status quo favours extreme zerging (key word being extreme) once it gets past a certain mass point, the underdog gets even more diminising returns from the system... as enemy has more tanks, and healers rezzing (nevermind counter dps players being more) than number of targets you can actually hit, so you have no chance to compete.

With removal or better version of target cap, you would give 6 man's a chance to compete with warband, and warband with zerg. (That doesnt mean wipe them everytime because that doesnt happen... a outside chance is better than no chance at all.

If people are smart(tactical/lazy blobbing) they will abuse the system and take full advantage at cost of fun and fights, this is what happens more and more and both realms do it given the opportunity and in my eyes the server is worse off for it as it discourages underdog... only semi effective half measure counter i've seen so far is when TUP (shouldn't be on us) swap realms to help out underdog with our broken lowbie setup (110D - 60 O when we start... then eventually ended 150 O 70 D) and we do that with one hand tied behind our back... if system was better designed maybe those underdog players on order yesterday could of killed destro momentum so it didn't snowball out of control and need us to even things out... now imagine if we not care about server health and just throw in another 24 + players ... 134 d vs 60 o RIP evening as order would get no momentum just pvdoor zzzz.

[Arbich]

hm...
https://youtu.be/ScZqOlRcpAY?t=189

Thats 100 kills in 1min. So roughly 1WB vs 4 WBs. While it did take some coordination, it was really not rocket science. So what exactly is the problem?

[oaliaen]

buffing underdog realm will never happen..thats what devs sayd. And thats why i changed my des to order.

[Collateral]

hm...
https://youtu.be/ScZqOlRcpAY?t=189

Thats 100 kills in 1min. So roughly 1WB vs 4 WBs. While it did take some coordination, it was really not rocket science. So what exactly is the problem?

The problem is that most of the time you won't be funneling on a bridge or wherever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lif8MEgMkkw Also 3+ wbs against 3 parties.

Of course these situations are rare and yes they require a lot of coordination and focus. And don't get me wrong, I'm not voting for warbands to be able to wipe 4 other warbands in open field (the situation would be quite different in these videos if the battlefield was an open ground). That can just never happen, unless they arrive one by one (and unless you remove/increase the target cap, maybe it could be possible then if you really tryhard). What we are discussing is breaking that zerg apart. In this older video order happened to be in the same place at the same time, probably going to defend the bo since it was open (back in the day when you locked bos). The problem today is that this is standard procedure. Each side blobs up, then asks in region where the other blob is, either trying to avoid it since it's bigger, or actively trying to find it for a wipe because it's bigger itself.

I'm starting to feel more and more that the merging of tiers and removing of bo locks are the biggest culprits. The new players who are too low rank just join with other warbands. Because of course they are safer and stronger that way and can stand a chance against premades. Who in their right mind would go roaming with a bunch of lowbies alone in the zone when premades are out to play? So naturally people do what they do irl, form a mass with as many bodies possible, crushing everything in their path. This happens because the playing field is not equal when a lowbie warband meets a full rank 40 warband. Yes the bolster gives you nice stats and buffs, but obviously people don't feel like it's enough. And how could it be since you are missing 1-2 tactics and many important abilities and mastery points, not to mention rr points. So in the end, the warband with a higher average rank usually wins (talking about pug here mostly).

How did ancient persians crush everyone in their path? They didn't have a mass of super elite soldiers, but a mass of average joes, stomping everyone with pure weight and out flanking them. And where did the elite greeks beat them? In tight passes and valleys surrounded by cliffs, taking away their number advantage and being able to out flank the enemy.

No amount of wound debuffs, xp debuffs/buffs etc. will break that zerg apart. You can't change human nature, simple as that. What you can change is things like available tactics and abilities, and aoe caps. So what I see as a possible solution other than increasing aoe cap, is giving people abilities and tactics faster, or even unlock them all when they enter rvr. It's the only way to level out the playing field when lowbies meet rank 40s imo. But you can't give mastery points and renown points, which still keeps it unbalanced to a degree. If devs don't want that, I honestly can't think of any other way other than removing the merging of tiers, and making a separate rank 40-only tier. But that might split the population too much. Doesn't hurt to try tho.

[Arbich]

hm...
https://youtu.be/ScZqOlRcpAY?t=189

Thats 100 kills in 1min. So roughly 1WB vs 4 WBs. While it did take some coordination, it was really not rocket science. So what exactly is the problem?

The problem is that most of the time you won't be funneling on a bridge or wherever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lif8MEgMkkw Also 3+ wbs against 3 parties.

Of course these situations are rare and yes they require a lot of coordination and focus. And don't get me wrong, I'm not voting for warbands to be able to wipe 4 other warbands in open field (the situation would be quite different in these videos if the battlefield was an open ground). That can just never happen, unless they arrive one by one (and unless you remove/increase the target cap, maybe it could be possible then if you really tryhard). What we are discussing is breaking that zerg apart. In this older video order happened to be in the same place at the same time, probably going to defend the bo since it was open (back in the day when you locked bos). The problem today is that this is standard procedure. Each side blobs up, then asks in region where the other blob is, either trying to avoid it since it's bigger, or actively trying to find it for a wipe because it's bigger itself.

I'm starting to feel more and more that the merging of tiers and removing of bo locks are the biggest culprits. The new players who are too low rank just join with other warbands. Because of course they are safer and stronger that way and can stand a chance against premades. Who in their right mind would go roaming with a bunch of lowbies alone in the zone when premades are out to play? So naturally people do what they do irl, form a mass with as many bodies possible, crushing everything in their path. This happens because the playing field is not equal when a lowbie warband meets a full rank 40 warband. Yes the bolster gives you nice stats and buffs, but obviously people don't feel like it's enough. And how could it be since you are missing 1-2 tactics and many important abilities and mastery points, not to mention rr points. So in the end, the warband with a higher average rank usually wins (talking about pug here mostly).

How did ancient persians crush everyone in their path? They didn't have a mass of super elite soldiers, but a mass of average joes, stomping everyone with pure weight and out flanking them. And where did the elite greeks beat them? In tight passes and valleys surrounded by cliffs, taking away their number advantage and being able to out flank the enemy.

No amount of wound debuffs, xp debuffs/buffs etc. will break that zerg apart. You can't change human nature, simple as that. What you can change is things like available tactics and abilities, and aoe caps. So what I see as a possible solution other than increasing aoe cap, is giving people abilities and tactics faster, or even unlock them all when they enter rvr. It's the only way to level out the playing field when lowbies meet rank 40s imo. But you can't give mastery points and renown points, which still keeps it unbalanced to a degree. If devs don't want that, I honestly can't think of any other way other than removing the merging of tiers, and making a separate rank 40-only tier. But that might split the population too much. Doesn't hurt to try tho.

Well, I was just showing that it is possible to beat a larger force, when you engage them in special situation. It seems you even agree that a smaller force shouldn´t usually be able to defeat a much larger force. Your historical reference to ancient greeks and persians (while I doubt its 100% correct ) also points in this direction. To beat a larger force you must outmaneuver them and fight them in suitable terrain. You might call this skill.

While I value your opinion, i fail to see your point how removing/increasing the AoE cap is helpful to achieve what you want.
Do you think the removal of AoE cap will serve as a constant threat, so people ("PuGs") are refrained to group up together?
Because when you bring the AoE without cap in action, it won´t split the zerg, it will scatter them.
And we also tried this somewhat in the past with the AoE cannons and the change to melee AoE at some time...

You bring the reasons why "PuGs" group up in on single blob. What should they do, if you remove this one advantage they have? And you also lower the skill-level of smaller organized forces.

You even give some advice how the zerg could actually split up (divide the tiers again, rework of oRvR, change how BOs work). That what the devs should aim for. Changing how oRvR works. Removing AoE caps (without lowering the damage. A combination of AoE to weaken the enemy and single target damage to kill them would be the, hard to balance, masterpiece of rework) is the wrong way.

[Collateral]

Well, I was just showing that it is possible to beat a larger force, when you engage them in special situation. It seems you even agree that a smaller force shouldn´t usually be able to defeat a much larger force. Your historical reference to ancient greeks and persians (while I doubt its 100% correct ) also points in this direction. To beat a larger force you must outmaneuver them and fight them in suitable terrain. You might call this skill.

While I value your opinion, i fail to see your point how removing/increasing the AoE cap is helpful to achieve what you want.
Do you think the removal of AoE cap will serve as a constant threat, so people ("PuGs") are refrained to group up together?
Because when you bring the AoE without cap in action, it won´t split the zerg, it will scatter them.
And we also tried this somewhat in the past with the AoE cannons and the change to melee AoE at some time...

You bring the reasons why "PuGs" group up in on single blob. What should they do, if you remove this one advantage they have? And you also lower the skill-level of smaller organized forces.

You even give some advice how the zerg could actually split up (divide the tiers again, rework of oRvR, change how BOs work). That what the devs should aim for. Changing how oRvR works. Removing AoE caps (without lowering the damage. A combination of AoE to weaken the enemy and single target damage to kill them would be the, hard to balance, masterpiece of rework) is the wrong way.

Yes the change to aoe cap would basically be a band aid at this point. It would only allow those that put in the effort to organize some fighting chance against the blob, making their effort worth while to some extent at least, knowing they could make a little dent in the blob at most. I doubt you would remove the advantage of blobs if you change the aoe cap. The smaller force would still receive the same damage, since the blob outnumbers you and can hit everyone in your warband already. But that smaller force can't hit the same amount of people as the blob (if you concentrate your damage, which is the point of being organized). That's the problem, as I perceive it now at least. The smaller force can hit 9 people, while the bigger one can hit 16-24 people (16 if healers position themselves right). You are already at a disadvantage with numbers, but even the amount of people you can hit is smaller.

I don't know, this is all just theory crafting and we can't really know for certain how any of what people propose would work out. I would just like to see something I guess, at least for a start. Changing aoe cap seems far simpler than redefining the whole rvr system again or coming up with some elaborate buffs and debuffs.

[wachlarz]

1.U RLY BELIVE THAT BLOB WILL NOT USE AOE
2. U RLY BELIVE THAT BLOB DONT HAVE ORG WB/PARTY ??