WL improvement iterations

[vanbuinen77]

Say, you have a typical AoE mara facing down a 2k armored target, some kind of clothie or a pug medium armour who forgot to use armor pot.
Mara plays in a proper warband where the victim gets armor debuffed by zealot, about 700-800?
Then mara runs a tactic ignoring half of the enemy armor.
Then you add in mara WS to ignoring whatever remains.

The mara dmg is very much higher than the current "trickle" coming out from a WL trying to AoE, even if its Spirit (the physical trickle would be far more meagre, as it would barely scratch tanks or +3k armor ppl with current lack of armor ignore tactic or high enough WS or whole realm lacking an AoE armor debuff).

You don't have double corp debuff on order, nor a double spirit debuff which would help all the High Elves, best you do is with -360 WoH from SM, something that is kinda easily countered by chosen resis aura or even shaman group resis buff - even with that debuff, the dmg is certainly a "trickle" - lot of 100-200 dots or less on your screen, little to no burst, either you have enough WLs and other actually heavy dmg doing dps doing the actual AoE dmg.
Sure, mara isn't the "main" dps on Destro, that would be Sorcs. Choppas should also be far above them. Yet, maras are not as toothless as current form of AoE WL.
And the gap between "Destro main" dps, Sorcs and between Maras with their "acceptable" AoE output is not that wide, compared to the other "Master of AoE dps" - BW versus their kitten friends the mighty high elf warriors who, while being now quite nice in the utility front, just do very limited AoE output and have still severe AP issues.

Possible solutions;
have Woodsman spec convert all of your WS into Str. Assuming you have somewhere between 300-400 WS, and maybe 700-800 Str, it would free your need to run Brute Force + Str pot whenever hoping to dish out AoE dmg (which you do with Spirit anyway coz you lack the armor ignore and WS is anyway very low to matter much).
Even with 50% of WS converted into Str, it should free that tactic slot (say 300 WS converted into 150 Str), should be enough to not need Brute Force in AoE spec.

Or something like giving dps Runie some way to hand out a 100-200 Spirit debuff based on a tactic, so you get more than 360 Spirit debuffed and maybe boosts the WL spirit dmg output somewhat. (Blorc + dpsZ combo vs SM + dpsRP combo?)


WL is getting better as option for WB, but its current form is still a questionable pick, you might get 1-2 to debuff enemy, but with recent changes to morales being barely there, you probably just don't have similar need for the AoE moral drain option. One or two should be enough to get that AoE KD and Init debuff, apart from that picking too many WLs just risks lowering the warbands dmg output by too much.

A aoe Mara is not doing "700-800" even on armor debuffed targets. Dont post this kind of stuff unless you have the facts to back it up. Its more like 400-500 with aoe if the target is taunted.

[vanbuinen77]

Additionaly you want to have them do spirit damage of which the cap is 40% AND be able to debuff it? Plus add crit immunity? Why nerf the wl in the first place if you wanna bring their defense and damage back?? It boggles the mind.

[lefze]

Say, you have a typical AoE mara facing down a 2k armored target, some kind of clothie or a pug medium armour who forgot to use armor pot.
Mara plays in a proper warband where the victim gets armor debuffed by zealot, about 700-800?
Then mara runs a tactic ignoring half of the enemy armor.
Then you add in mara WS to ignoring whatever remains.

The mara dmg is very much higher than the current "trickle" coming out from a WL trying to AoE, even if its Spirit (the physical trickle would be far more meagre, as it would barely scratch tanks or +3k armor ppl with current lack of armor ignore tactic or high enough WS or whole realm lacking an AoE armor debuff).

You don't have double corp debuff on order, nor a double spirit debuff which would help all the High Elves, best you do is with -360 WoH from SM, something that is kinda easily countered by chosen resis aura or even shaman group resis buff - even with that debuff, the dmg is certainly a "trickle" - lot of 100-200 dots or less on your screen, little to no burst, either you have enough WLs and other actually heavy dmg doing dps doing the actual AoE dmg.
Sure, mara isn't the "main" dps on Destro, that would be Sorcs. Choppas should also be far above them. Yet, maras are not as toothless as current form of AoE WL.
And the gap between "Destro main" dps, Sorcs and between Maras with their "acceptable" AoE output is not that wide, compared to the other "Master of AoE dps" - BW versus their kitten friends the mighty high elf warriors who, while being now quite nice in the utility front, just do very limited AoE output and have still severe AP issues.

Possible solutions;
have Woodsman spec convert all of your WS into Str. Assuming you have somewhere between 300-400 WS, and maybe 700-800 Str, it would free your need to run Brute Force + Str pot whenever hoping to dish out AoE dmg (which you do with Spirit anyway coz you lack the armor ignore and WS is anyway very low to matter much).
Even with 50% of WS converted into Str, it should free that tactic slot (say 300 WS converted into 150 Str), should be enough to not need Brute Force in AoE spec.

Or something like giving dps Runie some way to hand out a 100-200 Spirit debuff based on a tactic, so you get more than 360 Spirit debuffed and maybe boosts the WL spirit dmg output somewhat. (Blorc + dpsZ combo vs SM + dpsRP combo?)


WL is getting better as option for WB, but its current form is still a questionable pick, you might get 1-2 to debuff enemy, but with recent changes to morales being barely there, you probably just don't have similar need for the AoE moral drain option. One or two should be enough to get that AoE KD and Init debuff, apart from that picking too many WLs just risks lowering the warbands dmg output by too much.

A aoe Mara is not doing "700-800" even on armor debuffed targets. Dont post this kind of stuff unless you have the facts to back it up. Its more like 400-500 with aoe if the target is taunted.

He's talking armor numbers, not damage numbers. You are still completely wrong though. Obviously depends on the target and what not, but pre-mitigation numbers are in the 1k++ range.

Additionaly you want to have them do spirit damage of which the cap is 40% AND be able to debuff it? Plus add crit immunity? Why nerf the wl in the first place if you wanna bring their defense and damage back?? It boggles the mind.

Nerf? When was the AoE of WL nerfed? It has been non existant forever, only now has it even been brought into the light.

Though I agree on the stuff about defenses, it should be a purely offense oriented bomber.

[Mausini]

Can some of you please do the math before start complaining...

Lets say all your enemy's have a 25% change to crit you (lets take a simple numbers). Every 4. attack will crit you.

With a normal crit modifier of 50%, being immune to crits will give you a overall damage reduction of 12,5%.
With crit tactic slottet and a crit moidifier of 100% extra damage, again with 25% change to crit you, will migrate 25% damage over all.
Some will have more than 25% crit chance (sorcs), some less (Tanks, Healer) but in general the number is not unrealistic.
So with people with crit tactic slottet and some without, the damage reduction will float between 12,5 to 25%.

Higher crit rates will make the migration better, lower crit rates will make them worse.

I don't know what you think but that doesn't sound to absurd for a spec that should be a AOE frontliner in warband battles..
As soon as you change stances for example for a single target rotation you will receive the full damage again.

Please, please and please again. Don't throw around with general assumptions or subjective opinions. Back it up with some numbers or at least some half decent scenarios.

[vanbuinen77]

You arnt hitting 1k w/ mon speced mara

[live4treasure]

Afaik crit immunity actually seems much stronger than armor pen immunity because a lot of the main dps classes rely on critical damage to deal out meaningful dps. Woodsman being a primarily largescale rvr spec, this means that this will be a hardcounter to sorcs and witch elves... and honestly pretty much everyone, lol. Maybe it can be something like -20/-25/-30% recieved critical chance reduction with the aformentioned regeneration effect. That way high crit chance characters will still have a chance to crit, but it will be heavily reduced. Possibly ass some other small effect as well, like taking 5-10% less damage for 5 seconds after being crit.

[lefze]

You arnt hitting 1k w/ mon speced mara

If you can't reach 1k premitigation crits, you are doing something wrong. Hard to tell what exactly, but something.

However, you don't reach that high in full drain spec as you loose crit damage tactic and mutated aggressor, but even then damage is on par or better than WL.

And no, I'm not talking about a solo deftard spec, I'm talking balls deep bombing.

Afaik crit immunity actually seems much stronger than armor pen immunity because a lot of the main dps classes rely on critical damage to deal out meaningful dps. Woodsman being a primarily largescale rvr spec, this means that this will be a hardcounter to sorcs and witch elves... and honestly pretty much everyone, lol. Maybe it can be something like -20/-25/-30% recieved critical chance reduction with the aformentioned regeneration effect. That way high crit chance characters will still have a chance to crit, but it will be heavily reduced. Possibly ass some other small effect as well, like taking 5-10% less damage for 5 seconds after being crit.

Exactly, being immune to crits is effective against everyone, and especially against anyone with crit damage tactics it's just too good.

Especially if tied to the stance itself, oh boy what a broken panic button for every spec....

[obamia]

I don't like to compare classes and the future approach of the devs, as being said, is to move away from mirrors. Though the anti-crit sounds too good and unbalanced in a way that it works against everyone, especially for classes who rely on crits to do damage through tactics or career mechanics.

On the other hand Mara has immunity to armor penetration that it works only against physical based attacks, and still don't forget that mara can be armor debuffed that easily counter plays that armor penetration immunity.

[mubbl]

Couldnt be the stance proc or tactic(if spirit dmg will be bound to stance) something like ws will be countering your spirit resi?
That wouldnt make a majority of your stats less valuable and you should be able to get the same pentraiting values of a mara, cause as far as i know its armor pen tactic+ ws armor pen for mara

[theoddone]

I don't like to compare classes and the future approach of the devs, as being said, is to move away from mirrors. Though the anti-crit sounds too good and unbalanced in a way that it works against everyone, especially for classes who rely on crits to do damage through tactics or career mechanics.

On the other hand Mara has immunity to armor penetration that it works only against physical based attacks, and still don't forget that mara can be armor debuffed that easily counter plays that armor penetration immunity.

This. There are counters to GoM. What will be the counter to no crit?

So WL's want equal stances as mara while keeping all the utility and benefits of having a pet.

At this point, it feels like you people don't just want the whole cake, but the goddamn whole store.