Melee healing design

[Azarael]

If I can be perfectly frank (and let's be honest, I'm always perfectly frank), I don't think it's even possible to make a melee healer that is balanced well. It always seems to either totally invalidate backline healing and be incredibly overpowered and utterly invincible, or totally ignorable and easily dealt with via a single punt.

At this point, I'd rather see more effort in making sure salv backline healing and wrath melee dps were viable and effective than mess around with melee healing any more. Every time that someone tries to balance all three, it ends up backfiring because whatever you do to grace ends up effecting wrath. Mythic ran into the exact same issue and ended up just abandoning the idea of trying to balance melee healing, and to be honest, I can see why they did that and kind of agree with it. I just can't see any situation in which buffing or nerfing grace won't screw up wrath or make salvation useless.

You're judging the concept based on my fatal mistake: undertaking a serious conceptual rework without full control over the ability system.

However, I will say that if Grace were balanced AND made Salvation useless, I would be very much satisfied. My opinion on playing WP/DoK as RP/Zeal is well known.

[roadkillrobin]

I would still argue that Grace/Sacrifice was to a large degree designed to be PVE healing as it's the absolute best healer you can bring to a Dungeon due to the dps boost you give the group by far the moast superior of all healing classes.

As for warbands/scenarios, I don't think there was ever an intent to make this spec a primary choise and thats why Salvation/Dark Rites exist. However I do belive the intent was to never have Books/Chalices as that would force the classes into melee range and I also belive that every attack, including AA, was originaly intended to generate alot more RF/SE.

I play both WP and DoK as hybrids, hybrids as in 70% heals, 30% melee heals and I belive it's roughly how it was intended to be played. Is it the moast efficiant? No, but it have situations where it excells and outheals casted heals and it's slot more intense and fun to play imo.

[Zxul]

If I can be perfectly frank (and let's be honest, I'm always perfectly frank), I don't think it's even possible to make a melee healer that is balanced well. It always seems to either totally invalidate backline healing and be incredibly overpowered and utterly invincible, or totally ignorable and easily dealt with via a single punt.

At this point, I'd rather see more effort in making sure salv backline healing and wrath melee dps were viable and effective than mess around with melee healing any more. Every time that someone tries to balance all three, it ends up backfiring because whatever you do to grace ends up effecting wrath. Mythic ran into the exact same issue and ended up just abandoning the idea of trying to balance melee healing, and to be honest, I can see why they did that and kind of agree with it. I just can't see any situation in which buffing or nerfing grace won't screw up wrath or make salvation useless.

However, I will say that if Grace were balanced AND made Salvation useless, I would be very much satisfied. My opinion on playing WP/DoK as RP/Zeal is well known.

Azarael, on the side note, there is the question if playing dps WP/DoK as slayer/choppa is any better.

[Azarael]

If I can be perfectly frank (and let's be honest, I'm always perfectly frank), I don't think it's even possible to make a melee healer that is balanced well. It always seems to either totally invalidate backline healing and be incredibly overpowered and utterly invincible, or totally ignorable and easily dealt with via a single punt.

At this point, I'd rather see more effort in making sure salv backline healing and wrath melee dps were viable and effective than mess around with melee healing any more. Every time that someone tries to balance all three, it ends up backfiring because whatever you do to grace ends up effecting wrath. Mythic ran into the exact same issue and ended up just abandoning the idea of trying to balance melee healing, and to be honest, I can see why they did that and kind of agree with it. I just can't see any situation in which buffing or nerfing grace won't screw up wrath or make salvation useless.

However, I will say that if Grace were balanced AND made Salvation useless, I would be very much satisfied. My opinion on playing WP/DoK as RP/Zeal is well known.

Azarael, on the side note, there is the question if playing dps WP/DoK as slayer/choppa is any better.

I tire of having to repeatedly explain this. The problem with Salvation and Dark Rites is that they were designed around being the casted heal component of a class whose primary difficulties would lie in managing resource build through direct melee and when to cast and when to melee heal. They are simplified because of this. Allowing both classes to write off the melee healing left us with tediously easy casted heal mechanics and nothing else.

The idea of MDPS WP/DoK has absolutely nothing to do with this point.

[Zxul]

However, I will say that if Grace were balanced AND made Salvation useless, I would be very much satisfied. My opinion on playing WP/DoK as RP/Zeal is well known.

Azarael, on the side note, there is the question if playing dps WP/DoK as slayer/choppa is any better.

The idea of MDPS WP/DoK has absolutely nothing to do with this point.

Actually thats the point- WP/DoK are envisioned as a hybrid classes- doing dmg and healing in same time in its base is hybrid of 2 different things, no matter how you look at it- so why playing WP/DoK as RP/Zeal (pure healer) is bad, while playing WP/DoK as slayer/choppa (pure dps) is good?

[Azarael]

The difference between DoK and WP played offensively and DoK and WP played backline is that the offensive DoK and WP - even with the experimental mode - is better played by using all of its skills. DoK and WP played backline marginalize the vast majority of the melee skills. DoK and WP played offensively do not.

[Zxul]

The difference between DoK and WP played offensively and DoK and WP played backline is that the offensive DoK and WP - even with the experimental mode - is better played by using all of its skills. DoK and WP played backline marginalize the vast majority of the melee skills. DoK and WP played offensively do not.

That the question though- pure dps WP/DoK don't use their heal tree skills (which are used in hybrid dps WP/DoK builds), so why DoK and WP played pure dps marginalizing the vast majority of the heal skills is considered ok?

[Culdu]

off topic....

...- pure dps WP/DoK don't use their heal tree skills ...

if they do so, which means they don't use cleanse, rezz and hot and, due to your comparison with Choppas/Slayers, only use Divine Assault/Rend Soul on themself, they are just bad. Not allowing people to play bad could be a hard task. Additionally, with that playstyle they would perform better in any group with any other DD.

Back to Topic...
Using all abilities in melee healing is what i hope for. As long as you are not forced to follow one specific rotation all the time due to internal effect (cooldowns, resource management) like 2 casts 2 hits 2 casts 2 hits. If best rotation or skill in this situation also depends on the environment (potential target, buffs/debuffs, form of damage) i guess i would be happy

Looking forward for your changes, guess two weeks ?

Greetings Starilas

[Azarael]

I'm sure you can all appreciate that this subject is highly volatile, so it won't be Two Weeks. There are classes and reworks that will come before WP and DoK.

[Bozzax]

Tbh

Melee healing fail when you are outnumbered/outgeared/outskilled there really isn’t much you can do about it wo creating a 100% op class in all other settings.

Embrace the pain.....