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Melee healing design

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Culdu
Posts: 70

Melee healing design

Post#1 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:04 pm

~ hope i'm not wrong here due to it beeing more a suggestion otherwise feel free to move it

State of melee healing

A redesign is announced so I want to recall my experiences with melee healing in current state, with the ab ex mode some time ago and a vision for the redesign. Considering what Azarael already wrote about his plans for the Class.

First of all, in my opinion melee healer is a class where you can’t reach perfection, due to offensive/defensive target switching, movement, positioning and ability choice being so important you can always get a little bit better. That’s what I love on it.

Current state of melee healing is that you range from a strong, Top healer, as long you can hit a weak target, to a useless wasted slot when being kited or perma cared by a deftank. So with a good positioning, fast target switches (offensive & defensive) and good movement you can achieve a lot, but you can still be countered quite easy. That’s why nearly no group has one (not talking about hybrid class in a DD slot).

The ab ex mode had two approaches to this non reliability. On the one hand introducing a willpower buff to make cast heals useful, but only while engaged in close combat. On the other hand, improving the melee heals, that the defensive values of the target got irrelevant to the heal output.

Some will remember that ab.ex brought us a lot of melee healer rendering their group unkillable and topping the healscores by spamming transfer essence /sigmar’s radiance on the next best tank. Nearly none of them ever using a healing cast or pondering about not slotting damage tactics. Just because spamming was the most effective playstyle. I tested skilling Dark Rites & Sacrifice, using melee only to keep the buff and essence up while doing the main healwork with casts. Worked pretty solid but was not getting close to the output of transfer spam.

Azarael gave a glance that he wants to reintroduce the single target (small 10ft ae) melee heal which was removed back on live, what I like a lot.
There is also the discussion about lifedrain am/sham with the result, that heals have to be always the same, what I wouldn’t sign for melee healer.

Taking all this into account I want to present my thoughts and visions of melee healing.


Vision of melee healing


In my opinion making the class capable of casting useful heals is the way to go to make the the skill reliable.

To keep the melee healer as frontline, with high dependency on movement, targeting and skill choice I think there should be :

1.following grading in heal:

Best heal output when hitting a target with low armor in the back
Good heal output when hitting a moderate target (Medium armor or having caught a challenge)
Good heal output when casting heals without healreduces(in/out)
Low heal output when hitting hard targets (Guarded, Defftank …)
Low heal output when casting with healreduce (in/out)


2. melee healing skills with the following grading

Best healing output with the returned single target(small ae) ability
Divine Assault / Rend Soul good for focus heal, even on targets with higher defense but with cooldown and need of soul essence/fury.
Transfer Essence / Radiance good enough to counter some ae but not to keep up against single target focus


3. The possibility for the player to adjust to the situation, his playstyle or group setup with his stats and his tactics.


Possible Solution


Str -> Willpower buff

To achieve this the ab ex strength to willpower buff is a perfect solution.

- The normal healskills can be used, which allows the player to adjust his chars via existing skilltree
- Existing damage & heal abilities can be used
- Existing tactics, (damage increase/reduced heal, willpower) can be used to layout char for more melee healing or more casting
- The player has to stay close to the frontline but don’t has to be in the thick of it all the time
- Stats are still important, no flat numbers

Adjustment of healing numbers
Additionally, the melee healing abilities need a little improvement. The returning ability (single target small ae) had 100%/150% of damage healed, but no additional flat value. Having that ability as main melee healing ability it also needs a flat value.

Numbers must be tested but I thought about something like:
Healing Output:

Soft Target
single target heal 1200-1300
group heal 700-800
Rend soul per hit 1100

Medium Target
single target heal 900
group heal 500-600
Rend soul per hit 900

Hard Target
single target heal 600
group heal 300
Rend soul per hit 800

More important than the exact numbers are the proportions.

I would also keep the possibility to be blocked/parried to encourage target switching and positioning. I would suggest, that in case of parry/block only the flat value of the ability is healed without +%damage.

When taking damage debuff for melee healer into account that should be something like
single target 500 flat heal + 300% dmg
Transfer/Radiance 300 flat heal + 200% dmg
Rend soul 500 flat heal + 300% dmg (spirit)

All of this together would encourage to look for suiting targets or use cast heals otherwise.

Damage reduce
The reliable melee healer should not be a top DD, but his damage should make a difference. This would make it an important decision for the healer if he assists or is looking for a soft one in the current situation and separates him from pure casthealers. Guess the 50% Damage Debuff from Ab. ex was ok to achieve this.

If i wasn't able to give you a clear view on my opinions due to my english feel free to enquire
Thanks for reading, hoping for a reliable, demanding melee healer ;-)

Greetings Starilas

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nailinthehead
Posts: 84

Re: Melee healing design

Post#2 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:57 pm

My guess is this should be posted in the balance forums.

Nonetheless I think you make things way too complicated. I'll use WP skills as example as I don't play DoK. IMHO the easiest solution would be changing DF tactic into something like Rune of Breaking, giving 25% dmg increase when toggled on, and changing Divine Assault to heal defensive target for 350% of base damage on attack when toggled off. It would give strong heal (but channelled and easily interruptable) at the cost of lowered dmg.

AxelF
Posts: 219

Re: Melee healing design

Post#3 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:58 pm

I think some form of WP/str conversation is pretty much guaranteed given the recent dev comments about not needing to rework WP and DoK BL (and other) sets that give both str and WP bonuses that are currently totally useless.

Plus if you have a look at the WP mastery trees currently, Intimidating Repent mentions that it will remove the CD increase when used with Orison of Grace, and Absence of Faith talks about the heal debuff being increased to 50% when Orison of Wrath is active.

I suspect that DoK/WP are going to get a stance-type mechanic, possibly linked to the prayers, with each one granting buffs to either a backline heal, melee heal or dps spec.

The Wrath dps spec has the improved heal debuff and possible more, I guess Grace will have some sort of Str/WP converter/addition as well as maybe an AoE detaunt by default but with a CD (bypassable via Intimidating Repent).

The Orison of Salvation effect will be interesting as backline heal DoK/WP are in such a good place right now it's hard to think of a meaningful effect that won't make them OP. Maybe some sort of RF regen effect..?

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nailinthehead
Posts: 84

Re: Melee healing design

Post#4 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:04 pm

Ok, treat my post as non-existent as I forgot about recently introduced things mentioned by AxelF ;)

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: Melee healing design

Post#5 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:13 pm

Innate aoe detaunt for 2h Grace spec (not Wrath), Divine Fury no longer necessary for Grace (melee heals being given somewhat of a 'fixed' value that isn't so dependent on strength/damage modifiers), and something that allows the Grace WP to heal when they are cc'd/bitched to ****...then we got a good melee healer.
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: Melee healing design

Post#6 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:40 pm

peterthepan3 wrote: Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:13 pm Innate aoe detaunt for 2h Grace spec (not Wrath), Divine Fury no longer necessary for Grace (melee heals being given somewhat of a 'fixed' value that isn't so dependent on strength/damage modifiers), and something that allows the Grace WP to heal when they are cc'd/bitched to ****...then we got a good melee healer.
I might have a sollution to this.
Replace melee heals with melee absorbs that stacks.
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catholicism198
Posts: 1092

Re: Melee healing design

Post#7 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:15 pm

peterthepan3 wrote: Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:13 pm Innate aoe detaunt for 2h Grace spec (not Wrath), Divine Fury no longer necessary for Grace (melee heals being given somewhat of a 'fixed' value that isn't so dependent on strength/damage modifiers), and something that allows the Grace WP to heal when they are cc'd/bitched to ****...then we got a good melee healer.
I thought the whole point was to heal through damage...why bother going melee if you're just going to do a flat 250dmg and get the same results as being backline without being put in harms way and without the added utility?

WPs have some good melee healing/defense tactics that were supposed to work for the intended play-style, Divine Fury+Grace of Sigmar+Divine Warding+Exalted Defenses.... Ideally, Exalted Defenses would proc anytime you critically an enemy, like Transferred Focus.

The whole thing was poorly executed. It's like they completely neglected to factor in bubbles, snares, guard, and armor stacking...

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: Melee healing design

Post#8 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:26 pm

The original intent was to make the class a) play to concept and b) require more effort to play. Dealing 50% damage with full Str bonus is an acceptable contribution to the team.

My bone to pick with KotBS, WP, Chosen and DoK has always been with the skill curve.

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Mystry
Suspended
Posts: 445

Re: Melee healing design

Post#9 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:21 pm

If I can be perfectly frank (and let's be honest, I'm always perfectly frank), I don't think it's even possible to make a melee healer that is balanced well. It always seems to either totally invalidate backline healing and be incredibly overpowered and utterly invincible, or totally ignorable and easily dealt with via a single punt.

At this point, I'd rather see more effort in making sure salv backline healing and wrath melee dps were viable and effective than mess around with melee healing any more. Every time that someone tries to balance all three, it ends up backfiring because whatever you do to grace ends up effecting wrath. Mythic ran into the exact same issue and ended up just abandoning the idea of trying to balance melee healing, and to be honest, I can see why they did that and kind of agree with it. I just can't see any situation in which buffing or nerfing grace won't screw up wrath or make salvation useless.

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catholicism198
Posts: 1092

Re: Melee healing design

Post#10 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:23 pm

I can see it taking the place of Salvation in roam groups, but not so much in zerg vs zerg, or keep defenses/sieges.

Both the Warrior Priest and Disciples of Khaine were built around the idea of melee/front line healing, which is why they have so many indirect healing abilities and quick casting group/single-target heals. Take a look at Martyr's Blessing/Khaine's Refreshment, both abilities are AE heals that heal allies within 30ft of you...that ability is of little use to back line healers.

They need to add additional buffs to each Prayer/Covenant that somehow bolster the abilities for their respective mastery, instead or giving cheap procs, and make it so that you can't switch them on the fly.

Example: Chalices/Tomes grant 2 less Righteous Fury/Soul Essence, but you get 2 additional Righteous Fury/Soul Essence per second + some other bonus when Prayer of Absolution/Covenant of Tenacity is active.

Damage one would grant x% bonus damage/strike through/whatever but decrease the effectiveness of your life tap abilities. Regular heals are already less effective because of the two essential tactics.

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