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Siege weapons

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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
goa
Posts: 18

Siege weapons

Post#1 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:59 am

Ever since the first change of the siege weapons I've thought they're overpowered.
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Towing is interesting, but can now be griefed and abused by hiding siege engines so that defenders won't be able to have any at all. Also they're right now sometimes hidden at strange places (I know of a very cool garage).

Solution to that and to the picture: If siege weapons are moved outside of the keep area, they are destroyed.


The fact that players in the same realm are waiting for a player holding a siege weapon will get killed by a pet (or ready to take the engine if the holder leaves it (If that engine was not built by that player at that time)) is weird. I shouldn't blame the siege engines for it. But as the engines are so strong and most players are looking for the best possible rewards, this happens. Some might not heal, as they can snatch the cannon themselves instead.

I've also seen a player standing ready to tow an engine as soon as the holder gets ready to move back into the inner keep. He was standing mounted next to the engine as the outer door went from 100% to 0% and did steal it as the holder was getting mounted. It seems some players sees the cannons as the only thing playing for. It's a terrible way of playing, it helps no one, it doesn't help the realm one bit.

So why does this happen? The Siege engines are very powerful. Look at the top list of RRs, almost every player in the top farms RR mostly by camping siege weapons (I've done it myself when I lack the support I want for "playing"). By constantly spamming 600 dmg on 18 players (if you're good at it), you will get a ton of renown if any of those players dies (and many medals if you get kills). 5 AoE cannons hitting the same players will deal 3k dmg every 5 seconds.


My ideas: I know you've said this is part of more changes in RvR. But right now I think 18 hits (right?), is a bit much (I still think the original was powerful). With 9 hits there will still always be 5 engines deployed in keep sieges on both sides. I also think dodgable siege engines could be a solution (or maybe even both), with dodge, tanks gets one more task in sieges.

I've also heard you talking about a decay on engines, I can image something like 1% maxhp loss every 20 seconds. A siege weapon won't be up for more than 33 minutes and there is no need camping them. I think this would bring a little bit more life in RvR. Shouldn't keep sieges still be about the realms attacking and defending, rather than siege engines?

Finally I love the way you're using the ram as the major damage dealer to the door. Door melting is still faster with very big numbers, but it doesn't melt within 20 seconds. Also for more small scale, outside of prime time, keep sieges are possible. Oil is a good counter to it, right now it's strong, but outhealable if you're prepared, well balanced I'd say (except for the 'bugs' reported on github).

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goa
Posts: 18

Re: Siege weapons

Post#2 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:05 am

I use this post as a question:

Are Bane shield, Backlash and Somethin behind me?? (and possible more) supposed to trigger against the player shooting with a siege weapon?
Last edited by goa on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Jaycub
Posts: 3130

Re: Siege weapons

Post#3 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:17 am

+1

>get to keep 20 minutes early
>set up siege
>afk
>spam rmb for 250k renown a keep D

It's just skilless/mindless farming that rewards cheesing and trying to out rat your own realm. People not setting up single target cannons to deal with oil, and honestly how can you blame them when they are getting more RR in 5 or 10 minutes than your average joe in a pub warband will get in 6 hours.

A lot of people are going to be super salty about any change to this, and they are just shills who are mad their RR milk might come to a halt. If I had the drive to level RR post 40 on my characters I would probably post some vague response to this about how OP is wrong.
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magter3001
Posts: 1284

Re: Siege weapons

Post#4 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:30 am

I just don't understand why the devs want to make siege so damn important in a pvp game. Balancing the classes I think is more important than giving all classes some weird new toy. It's Mythic all over again with the Skaven system. :/
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Genisaurus
Former Staff
Posts: 1054

Re: Siege weapons

Post#5 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:32 am

We are well aware of the issues with siege, and we are working on solutions as soon as we can find ones that don't directly contradict plans for the future state of RvR.

The renown issue is deeply embedded in the way our entire combat and renown distribution system works, and will take a little longer to fix - but it is something we're looking into and working on.
magter3001 wrote:I just don't understand why the devs want to make siege so damn important in a pvp game. Balancing the classes I think is more important than giving all classes some weird new toy. It's Mythic all over again with the Skaven system. :/
1. Balancing classes in the way that most of them need will require client control, which we don't have yet. Even things like changing tooltips requires the ability to patch the client.

2. Balancing classes would both be one of the most unappreciated and misdirected things we ever did, without something to do with those balanced classes. I.e. good luck trying to balance the BW in the context of RvR, when nobody participates in RvR because it's broken.

Dabbart
Posts: 2248

Re: Siege weapons

Post#6 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:32 am

I've always thought that Seige engines should have a maximum ammo capacity, IE 100 shots or whatever, or a time limit on existence(an hour or so) then they are automatically destroyed to stop persistent camping. Ofc, this wouldn't stop people from dropping 1 after another, but it would make it more expensive to just sit there. Or some sort of timer system on how many Siege Engines you can use in each racial area. IE, you can only use 2 siege engines in Emp/chaos in a 24hr period of time, but once that is filled you can go to greenskin/dwarf for another 2. This would require the timers to persist after logout though, which has been stated as being potentially pretty far away.

I like the Towing system. Enables you to set-up really sweet defence even when very outnumbered, and therefore can help enable fights OUTSIDE of the keeps, which I can't help but feel is a good thing. The system aint perfect, but it isn't finished. You don't redesign your wall color's when your painter is still on the first coat... You don't know what it's gonna look like yet.
Azarael wrote: It's only a nerf if you're bad.

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drmordread
Suspended
Posts: 916

Re: Siege weapons

Post#7 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:11 am

Just some ideas????


Half hour timer

As long as a player is logged in, the siege can only be used by that player
(sorry, a DC/Crash will allow someone else to take your siege but that can not be helped)

Siege can only be towed within the area of a keep/fortress/(city in future)
I know the Devs want us to use siege throughout the zone, but as we can see, siege can be stowed away in hiding spots, and yes, people will xrealm so as to hide siege so defenders can not use it. (another good reason for an 8hr lockout if possible)

IF POSSIBLE..... Limit AoE siege to a max of three and allow up to three Single shot, for a total of 6 pieces. (one up from the 5 max limit atm)

Allow all single shot a limited AoE, at 1/4 damage of what was done at target.
Example: If you shoot an opponent for 2k damage, anyone within a 30ft radius will take 500 damage.
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Toldavf
Posts: 1586

Re: Siege weapons

Post#8 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:42 am

would share the reward between all defenders that would reduce the amount of machine camping.
Khorlar, Thorvold, Sjohgar, Anareth, Toldavf, Hartwin, Gotrin and others -_-

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Miszczu5647
Posts: 447

Re: Siege weapons

Post#9 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:06 am

As long as x-realming will by possible there will exist siege engines hiding strategy.
But:
1. Players - role-play that there was a traitors in our ranks. They sabotage our efforts. With this attitude hiding sieges will by valid strategy. As such it need counter. And it leads my to point 2.
2. To Devs - add buff on x-realmers (I am avare that will by possible only if someone have both sides toons on one account). Anyone with "traitor" buff can by captured and "hang by the neck until death" by other players from his faction. :D
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Dabbart
Posts: 2248

Re: Siege weapons

Post#10 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:54 am

For the record on "hiding siege engines" I saw mordread talking about that in DW today. There where only 2-3 sieges in the courtyard, and people where accusing Xrealmers(not just mordread, he was the only name I recognized), when i ran to the inner to respec my WH, I saw another 3 on the inner. So the keep was very well equipped with engines, it was simply due to the fact you can place them anywhere, that people are being cleverer with where they place them, so they can use em for the entirety of the siege. I have a feeling the Devs are clever enough to deal with people whom wish to purposefully sabotage ORvR.
Azarael wrote: It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)
Secrets wrote: Kindly adjust your attitude to actually help the community and do not impose your will on it. You aren't as powerful as you think.

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