Futile Strikes v Trivial Blows v Percentage Reduction

[Annaise16]

The link below shows a spreadsheet where the percentage reduction in average damage achieved by Futile Strikes and Trivial Blows are shown for different chances to be crit and crit-damage-bonus values. (The decimal numbers along the top row of each table are the chance to be crit percentages written as decimals. The 0.5, 1, and 1.5 values in the left-hand column of each table represent the respective crit damage bonus values of the different classes.)

http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... xw1htr.jpg

In summary:

FS is more effective against toons that have a low chance to crit and a high crit damage bonus.
TB, when it was part of the game, was more effective against toons that had a high crit chance and high crit damage bonus.

It could be argued that the characteristics of both of these abilities made them biased against classes with high crit damage bonuses. Is this a deserved bias? If not, would it be fairer to introduce a damage-reduction renown ability that gives a straight percentage reduction in damage? This would be similar to the old Hardy Concessions RA, but without the penalties to damage and healing.

[Nameless]

the thing is that on live ar rr+90 your enemies gain radicules amount of crit, add some debuffs and +60-70 was pretty common. So FS was pretty useless.
However when they reworked the rr skills and everyone still whrere rr80s with sov as BIS, FS were pretty stong.
While i was leveling to 100 and most ppl were <90 FS were quite good, when many reached rr+90 TB become mandatory to survive.

That how both skills felt on live, tested exclusivly on healer

[Dabbart]

Nameless kinda sums up my theory on it.

FS is my WPs bread and butter, 6.2% chance to be crit is nice. And with the AoE Detaunt, TB just isn't worthwhile. But once gear/RR unlocks to the point where people are having 40%+ crit chance somewhat easily, TB might become the way to go. I'll have to run the numbers on it at that time.


On my Knight, I stacked ini tali's, so I could go DD/reflexes/block. W/ RF proced he has like 3.x% to be crit.


That's my theory anyways.

And one really cool thing about RoR, is since the ranks are being unlocked slowly and incrementally, we all have plenty of time to test our our strats with a specific RR/gear cap.

[Shadowgurke]

TB doesn't work atm and the dev team wants to keep it that way

[Annaise16]

A few of the replies seemed to have miss the point of my op. I'm not asking about how the abilities work or how they compare. I already know that.

The point of my post is that FS (and TB during AOR) are biased against classes that have higher crit damage bonuses. So, would it not be fairer to ditch FS in the same way that TB was ditched and replace it with a renown ability that reduces damage by flat percentage amounts?

[thullonse]

just implement a softcap for crit or maybe even a hardcap?

[Tesq]

this comparison is futile for destruciton side where order can gain an amusing crit % from tactics that benefith whole groups and you have bw with 80% crit chance and a +150% to crit damages(+100 for rdps crit damage)

toughness work pre crit calculation anyway, stacking toughness is like also use a base damage reduction and then even have TB.

essentially

tough work similary to TB

while

initiative work similary to FS

with base damages not so high like in 1.4 it's more effective stack tough for now i belive instead TB/FS

-something similar to hardly concession need to be introduced, hardly concession took the place of the old renown system armor /resistences increase.
it also had a trade off in damages/heals due it was not bypassbale by anything and then tank even had too many things to take to even dare to spend more than 10/20 point in it.....
Generally all defensive stuff from renown (not active skill) should be reduced, the game it's totally in favour of offensive stuff, dd have tons of less things to take while tanks have too many stats wise. New renown system also downgrade the block you could even take by renown of a 2%.

[thullonse]

this comparison is futile for destruciton side where order can gain an amusing crit % from tactics that benefith whole groups and you have bw with 80% crit chance and a +150% to crit damages.

not saying you are wrong on this one but destro can boost their crit chance aswell but they are pretty selfish in doing so because most of the time they only bump their own crit. just as an example mara can give himself 20% crit and another 10% crit increase on a target. witch elf has +3% per bloodlust. magus can spec +15% crit for the respective traitline. choppa can spec for 100% crit after getting defended.
and like i said the difference is that destro tends to be more selfish(only buffing themselves) instead of beeing more group oriented.

also dont take this as order is inferior or destro is inferior because i dont want to ignite such a discussion since it is completly pointless because both factions are somewhat biased

[Keyser]

FS is more effective against toons that have a low chance to crit and a high crit damage bonus.
TB, when it was part of the game, was more effective against toons that had a high crit chance and high crit damage bonus.

Unfortunately it is not that simple. You minimized the expected taken dmg and your conclusion for this problem is correct.

Another approach (which coincides a little bit more with models in the real world) could be to push the expected value underneath some threshold and then try to minimize the variance. In other words: lets make the dmg we take less random because then it is easier to get healed.

This is pretty theoretical because nobody can say what this threshold is. But since tb reduced both - the variance and the expected value - I would have always specced tb. I do not know for sure if this was optimal (because I was too lazy to estimate possible thresholds) but in my opinion it was very reasonable.

[Tesq]

this comparison is futile for destruciton side where order can gain an amusing crit % from tactics that benefith whole groups and you have bw with 80% crit chance and a +150% to crit damages.

not saying you are wrong on this one but destro can boost their crit chance aswell but they are pretty selfish in doing so because most of the time they only bump their own crit. just as an example mara can give himself 20% crit and another 10% crit increase on a target. witch elf has +3% per bloodlust. magus can spec +15% crit for the respective traitline. choppa can spec for 100% crit after getting defended.
and like i said the difference is that destro tends to be more selfish(only buffing themselves) instead of beeing more group oriented.

also dont take this as order is inferior or destro is inferior because i dont want to ignite such a discussion since it is completly pointless because both factions are somewhat biased

i am well aware of those crit tactics just that the graphic is base on the stack and order set up can have higer crit stack than destru and frmo this side you have a medium range of crit which mean order can use better both FS and TB when building a healer or a tank while destru have a disadvantage in this. This is not a bias regarding order but more regarding just 2 skill that were implemented in live thinking they would be equal for everyone and they are not. Generally i bias the whole new renown system.