Shadow Warrior ideas - for the RDPS revamp

[kayotee]

I’ve long thought that SW could do with a rework being that it’s essentially the same class with some tweaks since 2008.

I believe the talent trees and stance mechanic are out dated and never at any point really made the class feel like it was in the trailer or in the lore. It has simply been a ranger class. I credit the Ror team for expanding that and making a melee spec viable and extremely fun. However you do need to pick which one you want. I’m not suggesting they should be insane at both at the same time.

What I think the class should be is perhaps a shadow skirmisher who can switch at will but with penalties limiting it.

Having two range specs in three available trees is out dated. Having two range stances is out dated. I would like to suggest merging the range specs into one tree, leaving one tree as melee and the third well it could be a utility tree such as Magusand Engy rift tree which makes it viable to warbands.

The stances can be reduced to two or three but the third should be related to a utility tree. For example they could become tankier in the third tree but do less dmg. When you in range stance you do less melee dmg and don’t have access to the utility. When in meee stance their range dmg is reduced and you lose access to the utility.

You could increase the cooldown of stances like the zealot and rune priest one being 30 seconds.



Alternatively you could just leave the stances at two, remove one all together. One for range, one for melee.


As per what abilities and utilities they should have willl be left to the balance team to decide. My input is more to do with the mechanic of the class.

[kayotee]

This would also apply to the squig herder. I believe their range specs should be merged.

The pet mechanic would be easy to mirror to the SW if the SW stances are changed. Though it can be complicated given the 4 way mirror between Mara sw squig and lion.

I personally would not like to see the revamp give sws a pet and lose the stances. I don’t think it would be harmful to remove the direct mechanic mirror to the Mara and think of something new for both classes.


I like the stance dancing but I could see something like the zealot RP mechanic also being enjoyable.

[kayotee]

As for abilities I’ve only thought about utility type such as rift for magus. I think a sw should be able to throw down barbed wire like an aoe gork sez stop that last for say 4-5 seconds where if you move in then you will take dmg but standing still will not do any dmg.

After the 4-5 second the barbs remove from their place in the ground.

[live4treasure]

I would love to see some form of stationary stealth mechanic for SW. I don't know if it would be balanced, because I'm sure getting festerbombed out of nowhere would be frustrating for many, but man would it be thematic for a guerilla fighter.

[zulnam]

These are all... horrible ideas.

[rorswar]

Having recently started maining a SW with mine at RR82, here's my thoughts.

1) The tree structure is fine as it is as each serves a clear purpose. Scout is for sniping, Skirmish is for being mobile, and Assault is for melee.

2) A third tree does NOT need revisiting to make a SW viable in WBs. We don't need to be like a mDPS SH in WBs, AOE Skirmish is very viable in WBs from a damage perspective and adds (albeit limited) utility in the form of morale drain through VoN + Barrage spam.

3) The mechanic is broadly fine. Having all abilities in a single stance would make no sense, and might over time nudge the SW into being overtuned. A good SW stance-dances, in a similar way that a SM needs to manage its three degrees of balance.

4) You can already be a "shadow skirmisher who can switch at will but with penalties limiting it.", but IMHO you primarily have to spec Assault/Skirmish for it, and min/max your gear so you do well in Assault, but can still function in Skirmish.

5) The class absolutely - let me repeat, absolutely - does not need a pet. There is no basis in lore, and there are already pet classes - WL, Engy, SH, Magus.

Each specialisation can perform:

- The scout tree synergises well and can hit like a truck, but is more stationary and heavily reliant on Festering Arrow hitting. If that misses, it's game over. I find it miss too often for my liking, but that may be more a meta issue, rather than a class issue.
- Skirmish works very well, either as single-target or as AOE spec and although it necessitates more of a glass cannon spec, it can hit hard in both variations. You can also take abilties from other trees to synergise further, like Fell The Weak or Guerilla Training from Scout.
- Assault is much better than on live, but arguably still the weakest of all three and thus definitely the least played. Other than myself and a handful others, I know very few people that actually play this.

Therefore, I think the SW needs tweaking and some optimisation, rather than more dramatic overhauls that some others are proposing. Here's some initial thoughs:

- Flame Arrow is very underwhelming. Yes, you may pick it up if you got a spare point, and it adds another DoT when kiting, but it's just meh. You can increase the damage with Smouldering Arrows tactic, but I don't think anyone picks a tactic to boost a single ability. Revisit one, or both.
- Keen Arrowheads just doesn't do anything for me. Perhaps as solo roamer, but in a game where it's more about burst it just doesn't help.
- Blood Soaked War tactic - I don't know anyone who uses this.

As I said, more than the other two stances, Assault is lacking. As someone else said elsewhere on the forum: "ASW is considered non-meta and too weak for organised play.... And I hope the RDPS patch brings ASW up to being playable in more types of content.". I would agree. As a solo roamer, it explodes against WEs as armour + parry counts for nothing, and struggles against many others. It only has a place in an organised 6-men that properly supports it, but is there too outshined by other options. Again, here's some intial thoughts:

- Broadhead Arrow is such a staple ability of the class (like Shadow Sting), I'd like to see it accessible in Assault stance, since it's already available in the other two.
- Sweeping Slash - to me Assault is more a single-target spec, but it'd be good to add some AOE pressure at times. 20s CD feels excessive.
- Shadow Step - the 10s 15% defense buff is very useful, but the actual "pounce" lands where the target is when you cast the ability. However, after that an aSW has no gap closer (other than ranged KD) so you typically land out of melee range, whilst a WL - for example - can still use Charge as gap closer.
- Wrist Slash - the +WeaponSkill of the tactic does NOT stack with the 4pc Tri +WS proc. This is HUGE for aSW, which is forced to spec more defensively and thus struggles to get sufficient WS since it heavily relies on physical attacks.

[Avernus]

- Blood Soaked War tactic - I don't know anyone who uses this.

It's super effective tactic for skaven event, which allows you to hold your line solo

[Adelmar]

Having recently started maining a SW with mine at RR82, here's my thoughts.

1) The tree structure is fine as it is as each serves a clear purpose. Scout is for sniping, Skirmish is for being mobile, and Assault is for melee.

2) A third tree does NOT need revisiting to make a SW viable in WBs. We don't need to be like a mDPS SH in WBs, AOE Skirmish is very viable in WBs from a damage perspective and adds (albeit limited) utility in the form of morale drain through VoN + Barrage spam.

3) The mechanic is broadly fine. Having all abilities in a single stance would make no sense, and might over time nudge the SW into being overtuned. A good SW stance-dances, in a similar way that a SM needs to manage its three degrees of balance.

4) You can already be a "shadow skirmisher who can switch at will but with penalties limiting it.", but IMHO you primarily have to spec Assault/Skirmish for it, and min/max your gear so you do well in Assault, but can still function in Skirmish.

5) The class absolutely - let me repeat, absolutely - does not need a pet. There is no basis in lore, and there are already pet classes - WL, Engy, SH, Magus.

Each specialisation can perform:

- The scout tree synergises well and can hit like a truck, but is more stationary and heavily reliant on Festering Arrow hitting. If that misses, it's game over. I find it miss too often for my liking, but that may be more a meta issue, rather than a class issue.
- Skirmish works very well, either as single-target or as AOE spec and although it necessitates more of a glass cannon spec, it can hit hard in both variations. You can also take abilties from other trees to synergise further, like Fell The Weak or Guerilla Training from Scout.
- Assault is much better than on live, but arguably still the weakest of all three and thus definitely the least played. Other than myself and a handful others, I know very few people that actually play this.

Therefore, I think the SW needs tweaking and some optimisation, rather than more dramatic overhauls that some others are proposing. Here's some initial thoughs:

- Flame Arrow is very underwhelming. Yes, you may pick it up if you got a spare point, and it adds another DoT when kiting, but it's just meh. You can increase the damage with Smouldering Arrows tactic, but I don't think anyone picks a tactic to boost a single ability. Revisit one, or both.
- Keen Arrowheads just doesn't do anything for me. Perhaps as solo roamer, but in a game where it's more about burst it just doesn't help.
- Blood Soaked War tactic - I don't know anyone who uses this.

As I said, more than the other two stances, Assault is lacking. As someone else said elsewhere on the forum: "ASW is considered non-meta and too weak for organised play.... And I hope the RDPS patch brings ASW up to being playable in more types of content.". I would agree. As a solo roamer, it explodes against WEs as armour + parry counts for nothing, and struggles against many others. It only has a place in an organised 6-men that properly supports it, but is there too outshined by other options. Again, here's some intial thoughts:

- Broadhead Arrow is such a staple ability of the class (like Shadow Sting), I'd like to see it accessible in Assault stance, since it's already available in the other two.
- Sweeping Slash - to me Assault is more a single-target spec, but it'd be good to add some AOE pressure at times. 20s CD feels excessive.
- Shadow Step - the 10s 15% defense buff is very useful, but the actual "pounce" lands where the target is when you cast the ability. However, after that an aSW has no gap closer (other than ranged KD) so you typically land out of melee range, whilst a WL - for example - can still use Charge as gap closer.
- Wrist Slash - the +WeaponSkill of the tactic does NOT stack with the 4pc Tri +WS proc. This is HUGE for aSW, which is forced to spec more defensively and thus struggles to get sufficient WS since it heavily relies on physical attacks.

I generally agree with everything you stated.

I think Split Arrows could be altered a bit as well. 65 feet plus a damage decrease for AoE on 2 abilities is a bit excessive, though if they don't end up changing it in the end, I'm fine with the current iteration. I would love if they hard-baked 100 feet range into Takedown and Shadow Sting as well. That's how it was with the old Powerful Draw and honestly, 65 feet on those 2 abilities feels pretty awful now compared to early in the server and live due to the increase in MS/leaps added here.

For Assault, I think (along with what you stated), bringing back the AA proc on the stance. Not really sure why that was ever removed since it certainly wasn't overperforming. It would add synergy back into our AA haste, imo.