[Out/Inc HD] WE/WH

[Alubert]

WE/WH are very powerful, especially now after the mele dps patch.
They are the only ones in the game with access to Outgoing HD and Incoming HD.
They don't have to do practically anything to achieve this.
This also means that they can build defensively but still have great killing potential.

I propose that WH BBoC and WE KoD receive a different debuff.
Add another skill that would be Outgoing HD.
It would have to be in a different tree than the Incoming HD skill.

There should not be a class that has access to two HDs in such a trivial way.

My solution would force at least some trade-off on their part to achieve what they now have for free.

[Shogun4138]

Dps healers should lose or have a massive reduction on healing. Actual healers should lose the ability to damage or at least a major reduction on dps.

[Slowbro]

WH and WE are not very powerful. I have both 80+. They still do nothing in warbands as they just die insta in zerg. In a warband they are just a liability that needs guard and costs a healer years of his life. If a warband leader has the choice to slot an extra healer, tank or real aoe dps, WH and WE are still out of the game.

The melee DPS patch is nice it actually buffed the classes...after 1.5 years of massive nerfing. One buff after so many nerfs can't even rly be considered a buff a this point.

The main problem in grp play was not rly addressed. Armor as a stat is way to powerful tanks don't die because of that. Healers don't die because they can counter heal and are backline. Rdps don't die because they are in the backline. The only class that is sacrificed are still melee DPS.

What is left is solo play or ganksquads.
Too many people here in the forum have never played WH or WE and don't know how hard it is to make a single kill on any class solo. Defensive WE build is still best choice utilizing some of that op Armor stat. Unfortunately WH is not as effective with Def.
Imo full glascannon builds are still way too much glas and too little cannon. People with healpots just detaunt, pot and punt / slow then proceed to kill you.

[Slowbro]

Also how is it fair that there is a ton of anti crit in the game that can make crit damage tactics and gear stats completely useless?
Why is there not anti heal crit stat?
Would be fair if heal crit chance is also reduced by the anti crit stat so that negative crit chance means also reduced chance to get critically heals.

[M0rw47h]

WH and WE are not very powerful. (...) In a warband they are just a liability that needs guard (...)

Any dps requires a guard and heals... Thats how this game was designed.

Dps healers should lose or have a massive reduction on healing. Actual healers should lose the ability to damage or at least a major reduction on dps.

If anything, they should have reduced ability to heal, not ability to deal damage. Whole reason of DPS healers is to DPS, not heal.

[Slowbro]

Any dps requires a guard and heals... Thats how this game was designed

No, rdps do not need as much guard and heals as they exist in the backlines and therefore are out of reach for melee DMG and most of the aoe spells as well. Its mainly melee DPS that need constant attention especially in a siege situations.
Just watched a ror streamer with a choppa few days ago in a siege and that guy was dying all the time. Just because he tried to do his job to do damage in Zerg. A friend of mine watched it too and asked me how that gameplay is supposed to be fun.

[Ruin]

Also how is it fair that there is a ton of anti crit in the game that can make crit damage tactics and gear stats completely useless?
Why is there not anti heal crit stat?
Would be fair if heal crit chance is also reduced by the anti crit stat so that negative crit chance means also reduced chance to get critically heals.

There are anti crit abilites in game RN:
- IBs Kneecapper debufs both dmg crit and heal crit
- BGs Crush the weak also works like that
and i assume there are more skills like that just check the descriptopn if there is reduced "critical chance" that means it affect all crit chances also healing.

to be honest i see no reason why all crit reducing abilities shouldynt work like this.

[M0rw47h]

Any dps requires a guard and heals... Thats how this game was designed

No, rdps do not need as much guard and heals as they exist in the backlines and therefore are out of reach for melee DMG and most of the aoe spells as well. Its mainly melee DPS that need constant attention especially in a siege situations.
Just watched a ror streamer with a choppa few days ago in a siege and that guy was dying all the time. Just because he tried to do his job to do damage in Zerg. A friend of mine watched it too and asked me how that gameplay is supposed to be fun.

rDPS need both guard and heals, because enemy rDPS exist as well. Also, your front line can be broken and/or you can be FLANKED.

[gersy]

They don't have to do practically anything to achieve this.

disclaimer: i'm speaking from an organized 6/12/18/24 man party perspective here, as always, because this isn't a solo game and it isn't balanced around that.

i think 9 mastery point investment for IHD is definitely doing "something". especially with the shift of seal of destruction nerfed (50% to 25% but charge added lol) and shifted to left tree.

on ST DG if you want IHD it means you lose vanish, 2nd KD and if you ran +2 abso spam DG variant you would also lose atonement. on BAL if you want IHD you lose seal, repel and if you ran +2 max damage variant you also lose blessed blade. EW gets IHD by default, of course, but that build is long dead and unnecessarily nerfed yet again so barely even a point to mention it.

on WE it's a fairly similar situation unless you are playing witchbrew. ST OYK builds lose access to vanish/2nd kd, SS builds lose access to pierce armor and elixir of insane power.

i think that is some rather large investments and tradeoffs personally and is completely within the realm of healthy balance. basically what mastery trees SHOULD be, making tradeoffs in exchange for certain advantages.

now on the topic of aoe in open rvr and the OHD, specifically for WH, i do that that in its current iteration it is too strong. guaranteed aoe debuffing healer lines on aoe WH is the best way to play it atm, as debuffing 12-24 healers with -50% outgoing healing is 10x more useful than sitting in the frontline and pretending you are a white lion. i could see the OHDs being reduced in power in the future maybe - perhaps there is a way to make it so if the OHD bullet/kiss proc originates from an aoe ability (dg, bh, oyk, bs) then it is applied at half value (25% OHD) instead.

[salazarn]

WH do not have good killing power without building dmg.

And if anything this game needs more ways for dps to kill healers in small scale not less