Grimmshimmer and fleshrenders

[SuperStar]

Idk all of you started the game yesterday or what?

180hp/4sec

Really?

Do you think this is the problem?

Based on this wonderful idea what about the 80hp/4sec pocket item? For free and from lvl 16.

You have serius problem.

What about the 3 potion what is basicly resetting the fight?


Most of the class if go full deftard losing a lot.

There are some exeption.

Regen welf.
Sm
Engi
Magus

Why?
Why are they so good?

Not because the f 180hp/4sec!

Its beacuse they are attacking with magic they dont need second offensive stat. Have a lot of utility hard cc buff debuff.

A lil bit thinking always usefull before you write something.

It's frustrating that I have to write about such fundamentals in a game that's almost 20 years old.

Btw if you think its op check the best of them on killboard and see who can kill them. Ask him improve adapt.
Thinking!!! And dont whine on the forum about a 180hp/4sec item while everybody got a lvl 16 80hp/4sec pocket item.
And most of us can reset any fight with 3 pot.

[Stinksuit]

Nothing is OP if everyone has access to it. DPS healers do a lot of healing to themselves, even with a heal debuff. Tanks have many innate healing passives. These kinds of builds work on any class to varying degrees. A SW can use a few regen pieces to keep from dying to dagger throws from WE's and they can have longer kiteing than normal. On melee dps classes these defense builds are basically anti-melee builds. Meaning they kill melee dps very well but are trash against ranged or heals. The only complaints about this stuff are from people who lose a fight to a better spec than what they have themselves. These types of complaints are no different than the ones saying something killed me really fast and its OP. However, I do think that going "glass cannon" needs to be more viable. I'd like to see some hyper damage possibilities with the new dps changes. Stuff that makes you hit significantly harder, but only at great risk (say like when you have < 25% hp for example. Also, some of us really like to fight 2 v 1, or 3 v 1. Who could complain about that? Other than the ones who lost...

1. 300 hp / 4 secs isn't game breaking. It gives you some relief to react on the long GCD the game has deployed so you don't become susceptible to execution abilities which enable when you are below 30% health.
2. A regen spec'd Tank will beat a regen spec'd melee DPS most of the time.
3. A regen spec'd DPS may beat a non-regen spec'd Tank some/most of the time.
4. A dps-healer will beat a regen spec'd melee DPS or Tank most of the time.
5. There is no amount of regen you can spec to out heal a properly spec'd DPS-AM/Sham

We are focusing on the wrong itemization problems of the game with this thread. It's not even in the top 50 problems the current version of ROR has...

Correct.

But not everyone has equal access to utilise regen gear effectively. It turns one class into an absolute monster that ruins smallscale for everyone else while being a meme for anyone else except tanks. Small scale in general is made significantly less fun by the prevalence of defensive builds, since they can't actually kill anyone who just runs away because they do no damage. But regen WE just takes the piss and wins by default against everyone.

These sorts of builds turn what should be battles of finesse into obnoxious button mashing fests at best.

The state of things right now is:

WE regen/def build does good damage, can live through any classes burst and then passively heal, wins every fight by default. Very difficult to escape from, so will whittle pretty much anyone down and win eventually except a healing specced healer.

Any other DPS with a regen/def build does too little damage to do anything, but simultaneously also can live through burst and outheal even full dps spec single target builds, so it's sitll annoying to have them around.

Tank regen with some dps builds are OKAY, the only one that really feels somewhat balanced, though the regen is still a bit too much.

Tank regen/def builds are the most obnoxious people on the server who do no damage, get no kills, and seem to exist to intentionally grief people by wasting their time (you all know who I'm talking about, there are infamous players who do this)

The question is, is this really something that we need to protect? Is this such an important and iconic archetype that RoR can't just trash it? Because from my experience, the game would be objectively better without significant regen gear, except perhaps some of it for tanks. It adds nothing positive at all, it creates a solo/small scale roam metagame where half the players are running around with deftard builds, and the other half are playing actual specialised solo dps builds that still can't do enough burst to kill those deftard builds. So they just avoid each other, which is not a good situation in a game that already has a low population.

The small scale in RoR is obviously not a focus, but it is not in other MMORPGs either, and they still have much better and more dynamic gameplay than this. Exciting fast pace fights with lots of room to outplay the other player vs... Let's strafe around each other and mash buttons while passively healing and having 70% damage reduction.

Good 1v1 gameplay is stuff like,
A choppa intentionally eats the burst of a WH and makes him think he's winning then kds+bursts him with full rage before he can vanish.
An SW perfectly manages his stance swapping and cooldowns and manages to get out of range of a melee who got the jump on him then wins by kiting.
An engineer turns around a fight against a DPS WE who got the opener by detaunting+knockbacking him and then mezzing his vanish.

Regen gear (especially with its associated proc slows and such) essentially kills all of this potential for actual fun, fast fights where actions and decisions are meaningful, with opportunities to outthink and outplay the opponent.

This, I agree that if we didn't have these super defensive specs it would be more fun to solo roam. I mean who doesn't like killing people, right?

When I'm solo roaming its kinda what you said, if I see someone that I know is running full deftard with max regen approach me, well I simply just flee them. I won't waste my time hitting someone who regens ~8% of their max hp every 4s xD

Then again people enjoy different things, some likely just prefer to solo roam and see that they died 0 times that day etc so who am I to tell them how they should play the game. I guess it is what it is and we just see what will happen in the future. We are getting class balance changes for sure even if no changes to the regen items so that'll (hopefully) affect some of the "solo meta". :)

[Stinksuit]

Idk all of you started the game yesterday or what?

180hp/4sec

Really?

Do you think this is the problem?

Based on this wonderful idea what about the 80hp/4sec pocket item? For free and from lvl 16.

You have serius problem.

What about the 3 potion what is basicly resetting the fight?


Most of the class if go full deftard losing a lot.

There are some exeption.

Regen welf.
Sm
Engi
Magus

Why?
Why are they so good?

Not because the f 180hp/4sec!

Its beacuse they are attacking with magic they dont need second offensive stat. Have a lot of utility hard cc buff debuff.

A lil bit thinking always usefull before you write something.

It's frustrating that I have to write about such fundamentals in a game that's almost 20 years old.

Btw if you think its op check the best of them on killboard and see who can kill them. Ask him improve adapt.
Thinking!!! And dont whine on the forum about a 180hp/4sec item while everybody got a lvl 16 80hp/4sec pocket item.
And most of us can reset any fight with 3 pot.

As was mentioned in this post its not just about the "180hp/4s"

OPs words

"180hp/4s in 4s won't bother me, its the 400-500 hp/4s with full toughness/armor stack and max parry on top of that what bothers me."

Yours

"A lil bit thinking always usefull before you write something."

And yes while you're correct most classes lose so much going that deep into regen there are still classes that can do it quite comfortably (which you mentioned yourself aswell). I believe OP also explained that while triple potting basically "resets" a fight it still eats global and takes thinking when to use them. While passive hp regen is just there ticking without player having to do anything other than spec into it.

[SuperStar]

To Stinky:
LOL

The dps zealot is bothered when someone heals themselves in 1v1.

Does it really bother you that people heal themselves? You, who plays with dps zealot?

Tell me, don't you heal yourself by accident?

Don't you use tri potions? Don't you have a pocket item with 80hp/4sec?

What's going on in this thread is shameful.

[SuperStar]

To Stinky:
LOL

The dps zealot is bothered when someone heals themselves in 1v1.

Does it really bother you that people heal themselves? You, who plays with dps zealot?

Tell me, don't you heal yourself by accident?

Don't you use tri potions? Don't you have a pocket item with 80hp/4sec?

What's going on in this thread is shameful.


Ps.:

A blue lvl36 item with lame stats that isn't part of any set doesn't lose anything? Seriously, your argument is that the trip that resets fights is the gcd?
So it requires a lot of skill?

It's not worth talking to you guys, you're so self-centered and frustrated that you can't see anything else in front of you but to weaken everyone else senselessly and thoughtlessly so that you can be more successful. These narrow-minded, hypocritical, self-deceptive attitudes are very bad for the game and the community.

[fatelvis]

To Stinky:
[...]
It's not worth talking to you guys, you're so self-centered and frustrated that you can't see anything else in front of you but to weaken everyone else senselessly and thoughtlessly so that you can be more successful. These narrow-minded, hypocritical, self-deceptive attitudes are very bad for the game and the community.

You should stop entering those threads and pouring in your borderline respectless frustration then.

Regen setup on a bunch of classes is pretty much easy mode in 1v1 environment and as such became pretty common. It leads to wins against offensive builds or stalemates/half an hour fights against other regen setups.
Tuning down the regen by unique equips and decreased values would be worth a try I think, and nothing the common zerg needs to be concerned about anyway.

[Faction69]

Grimshimmer chest is just the most powerful regen item, there are a bunch more that also compound together with other stuff, like self heal abilities/tactics, absorbs, procs, avoidance, and toughness gear. If it were *just* 185 hp / 4 sec like you say no one would be complaining. To act like it's not super powerful when this combo is enough to negate 1 BiS single target specced dps players damage entirely is insane.

[Gladiolix]

To Stinky:
LOL

The dps zealot is bothered when someone heals themselves in 1v1.

Does it really bother you that people heal themselves? You, who plays with dps zealot?

Tell me, don't you heal yourself by accident?

Don't you use tri potions? Don't you have a pocket item with 80hp/4sec?

What's going on in this thread is shameful.


Ps.:

A blue lvl36 item with lame stats that isn't part of any set doesn't lose anything? Seriously, your argument is that the trip that resets fights is the gcd?
So it requires a lot of skill?

It's not worth talking to you guys, you're so self-centered and frustrated that you can't see anything else in front of you but to weaken everyone else senselessly and thoughtlessly so that you can be more successful. These narrow-minded, hypocritical, self-deceptive attitudes are very bad for the game and the community.

You seem to be very talented at missing the point of the whole thread, and then telling other people to think before posting, truly living by your name SuperStar And the mic drop at the end "It's not worth talking to you guys", with calling people "narrow-minded, hypocritical, self-deceptive attitudes" while I don't think these adjectives describe anyone better than you :DD

If you had read, or better yet, understood the points made in the topic, you would have understood that people are not asking for removal of regen. Just ways to play against it and adjust/nerf it in a way that it's not the only 'viable' way to solo/duo, and you would find something else than endless waves of regen/deftards specs to fight against in smallscale. It also isnt as much about whats op and whats not, it's more about whats fun and IMO fighting against regen deftards is not fun (an opinion shared by many others in this post).

Re-read Faction69:s post, it sums up the state of regen deftards pretty nicely and I agree with pretty much all the points:

Spoiler:

Nothing is OP if everyone has access to it. DPS healers do a lot of healing to themselves, even with a heal debuff. Tanks have many innate healing passives. These kinds of builds work on any class to varying degrees. A SW can use a few regen pieces to keep from dying to dagger throws from WE's and they can have longer kiteing than normal. On melee dps classes these defense builds are basically anti-melee builds. Meaning they kill melee dps very well but are trash against ranged or heals. The only complaints about this stuff are from people who lose a fight to a better spec than what they have themselves. These types of complaints are no different than the ones saying something killed me really fast and its OP. However, I do think that going "glass cannon" needs to be more viable. I'd like to see some hyper damage possibilities with the new dps changes. Stuff that makes you hit significantly harder, but only at great risk (say like when you have < 25% hp for example. Also, some of us really like to fight 2 v 1, or 3 v 1. Who could complain about that? Other than the ones who lost...

1. 300 hp / 4 secs isn't game breaking. It gives you some relief to react on the long GCD the game has deployed so you don't become susceptible to execution abilities which enable when you are below 30% health.
2. A regen spec'd Tank will beat a regen spec'd melee DPS most of the time.
3. A regen spec'd DPS may beat a non-regen spec'd Tank some/most of the time.
4. A dps-healer will beat a regen spec'd melee DPS or Tank most of the time.
5. There is no amount of regen you can spec to out heal a properly spec'd DPS-AM/Sham

We are focusing on the wrong itemization problems of the game with this thread. It's not even in the top 50 problems the current version of ROR has...

Correct.

But not everyone has equal access to utilise regen gear effectively. It turns one class into an absolute monster that ruins smallscale for everyone else while being a meme for anyone else except tanks. Small scale in general is made significantly less fun by the prevalence of defensive builds, since they can't actually kill anyone who just runs away because they do no damage. But regen WE just takes the piss and wins by default against everyone.

These sorts of builds turn what should be battles of finesse into obnoxious button mashing fests at best.

The state of things right now is:

WE regen/def build does good damage, can live through any classes burst and then passively heal, wins every fight by default. Very difficult to escape from, so will whittle pretty much anyone down and win eventually except a healing specced healer.

Any other DPS with a regen/def build does too little damage to do anything, but simultaneously also can live through burst and outheal even full dps spec single target builds, so it's sitll annoying to have them around.

Tank regen with some dps builds are OKAY, the only one that really feels somewhat balanced, though the regen is still a bit too much.

Tank regen/def builds are the most obnoxious people on the server who do no damage, get no kills, and seem to exist to intentionally grief people by wasting their time (you all know who I'm talking about, there are infamous players who do this)

The question is, is this really something that we need to protect? Is this such an important and iconic archetype that RoR can't just trash it? Because from my experience, the game would be objectively better without significant regen gear, except perhaps some of it for tanks. It adds nothing positive at all, it creates a solo/small scale roam metagame where half the players are running around with deftard builds, and the other half are playing actual specialised solo dps builds that still can't do enough burst to kill those deftard builds. So they just avoid each other, which is not a good situation in a game that already has a low population.

The small scale in RoR is obviously not a focus, but it is not in other MMORPGs either, and they still have much better and more dynamic gameplay than this. Exciting fast pace fights with lots of room to outplay the other player vs... Let's strafe around each other and mash buttons while passively healing and having 70% damage reduction.

Good 1v1 gameplay is stuff like,
A choppa intentionally eats the burst of a WH and makes him think he's winning then kds+bursts him with full rage before he can vanish.
An SW perfectly manages his stance swapping and cooldowns and manages to get out of range of a melee who got the jump on him then wins by kiting.
An engineer turns around a fight against a DPS WE who got the opener by detaunting+knockbacking him and then mezzing his vanish.

Regen gear (especially with its associated proc slows and such) essentially kills all of this potential for actual fun, fast fights where actions and decisions are meaningful, with opportunities to outthink and outplay the opponent.

[Stinksuit]

To Stinky:
LOL

The dps zealot is bothered when someone heals themselves in 1v1.

Does it really bother you that people heal themselves? You, who plays with dps zealot?

Tell me, don't you heal yourself by accident?

Don't you use tri potions? Don't you have a pocket item with 80hp/4sec?

What's going on in this thread is shameful.

I mean I play all class roles as non defensive non regen. I was kinda expecting someone to bring up dps zeal to my replies since I am quite anti regen so I dont doubt people think, I'm like that just because "I want to outlast my opponents with some hybrid zealot".When in reality thats not really true. I also play my zeal with super glass cannon build (I only have around 7k wounds).

Personally the regen itself is not that big of an issue, most of my toons can just burst regen specs down or as I mentioned that if its some full deftard 400+ regen guy I just walk away. I think the issue is kinda the fact that defensives are quite easy to get versus strikethrough. Same reason why snb ib for example is annoying to deal in solo gameplay because you just cant hit them.. then again nothing we can do about that since nerfing the snb mitigation for solo gameplay would make tanks just melt in actual wb play. So not good

Im not really sure why you seem to be so defensive about this subject? For the most part it seems that people are having quite a good conversation about this (I'm actually surprised it has stayed this civil). As was mentioned above. If it bothers you so much, well maybe you shouldn't read the thread..

[Faction69]

I mean I don't like to appeal to authority but basically all the long term recognisable solo players agree on this here. OP is someone who's been making solo videos on almost every class for as long as I've been playing. I recognise a lot of other people agreeing as frequent soloers/small scalers, a few of whom also make vids. The devs would be wise to take the feedback from the ppl who actually enjoy small scale and keep it alive, especially because regen gear is something you could nerf or remove without it being noticed at all for warband play. It is one of the rare occassions where there's an opportunity to make one form of rvr a lot better without it having any affect on the other.