Grimmshimmer and fleshrenders

[nocturnalguest]

So implementation of your proposals will create even more unbalance and your favorite game mode will become even more dull, to a point of being sh*tshow nightmare.

The proposal to restrict it to classes that actually do need it? Is somehow going to create a nightmare?

Makes no sense.

Why you quote me? That was adress to Pahakukka!

I actually said that you are based on your vision how it will turn out in reality, i do share same vision. RDPS and healers. And this gonna be a nightmare.
I dont feel there is any need to restrict items, more smart balance work should be done to tune classes. That why i excluded a part about "nerfing" "restricting" items as further fueling initial bad balance design then i mentioned your post as base.

[Farrul]

So implementation of your proposals will create even more unbalance and your favorite game mode will become even more dull, to a point of being sh*tshow nightmare.

The proposal to restrict it to classes that actually do need it? Is somehow going to create a nightmare?

Makes no sense.

Why you quote me? That was adress to Pahakukka!

I actually said that you are based on your vision how it will turn out in reality, i do share same vision. RDPS and healers. And this gonna be a nightmare.
I dont feel there is any need to restrict items, more smart balance work should be done to tune classes. That why i excluded a part about "nerfing" "restricting" items as further fueling initial bad balance design then i mentioned your post as base.

OK

I do agree balancing the classes is the correct move and should be the prioritization . However if regen items ''has to be touched'' due to players complaint about them. Then imho it is the important the devs recognize which classes do need regen and those that can live without it, then make the change accordingly.

A universal nerf would be bad, yes i would consider it a ''nightmare'' as well for the small scale roaming.

[Stinksuit]

The proposal to restrict it to classes that actually do need it? Is somehow going to create a nightmare?

Makes no sense.

Why you quote me? That was adress to Pahakukka!

I actually said that you are based on your vision how it will turn out in reality, i do share same vision. RDPS and healers. And this gonna be a nightmare.
I dont feel there is any need to restrict items, more smart balance work should be done to tune classes. That why i excluded a part about "nerfing" "restricting" items as further fueling initial bad balance design then i mentioned your post as base.

OK

I do agree balancing the classes is the correct move and should be the prioritization . However if regen items ''has to be touched'' due to players complaint about them. Then imho it is the important the devs recognize which classes do need regen and those that can live without it, then make the change accordingly.

A universal nerf would be bad, yes i would consider it a ''nightmare'' as well for the small scale roaming.

Just out of curiosity, which classes "need" regen?

[Farrul]

Just out of curiosity, which classes "need" regen?

As i went through in my post, those that are easily abused by dots and rdps. This would be 2H tanks (SnB obviously doesn't need it) and none stealthed mdps. Although the amount needed may differ depending on which class( i.e Chosen/Kotbs has a regen aura and so on).

[Stinksuit]

Just out of curiosity, which classes "need" regen?

As i went through in my post, those that are easily abused by dots and rdps. This would be 2H tanks (SnB obviously doesn't need it) and none stealthed mdps. Although the amount needed may differ depending on which class( i.e Chosen/Kotbs has a regen aura and so on).

I am genuinely interested because Ive heard some people say that X class is not playable in solo gameplay if not using regen but then there is people playing that in solo without regen. That's why I'm just wondering what classes "need" it. Personally none of my classes rely on regen (not even my 2h tank).

Few examples I've seen myself is "slayer cant solo roam without regen and just dies to 2 sham dots without it". Then again OP here has videos with solo slayer and choppa without regen.
Usually the follow up is "yeah but the players he kills are just bad". Then again, atleast to me a slayer won't win against "good" shaman in a pure 1v1 no matter the regen he has.

[crystl32]

Mimimimmi
Just secretly shadow nerf these items by making them cursed. They now degenerate your health and you cannot unequip them for at least 3 months .

[nocturnalguest]

Also in regards to discussion at page 6, solo roam was always a chess-play with RPS elements, recently someone summ it up very greatly (not in this thread, but somewhere else, i wasnt able to quickly find and quote person's post, sorry) as something like 1) build (absolute priority and where RPS elements start to come into play) -> 2) gcd management (what differs e.g. Second from other roamers so much, this is where RPS elements are fully in play) -> 3) luck (who evades what and when)
What people word as "skill" is actually only 2) in a logic of "action" vs "counteraction" (hence a word chess is used). Lots of this is being briefly described by Pahakukka in his video clips and that makes those clips very great especially for newcomers and for those who wish to learn how to win match-up XYZ

Now to what we discuss and its items. Previous 1) "build" goes into following logic - 1) masteries (fundamental aspect, first priority) -> 2) tactics (incredibly important and situational) 3) renown -> (finetuning) 4) items (further finetuning). Nobody can play out of regen itself, only if 1) + 2) + 3) allows.

So a point is, 1) + 2) + 3) are much bigger issue then 4) and they to be fixed. In ideal world accurate, in step by step logic, not full overhaul out of the blue.
Another point (which is not obvious from what we discuss but if anyone wants i can go into details), each solo roaming viable class can be build and played to hard counter another. But people build themselves universal, because they are roaming, not dueling and here RPS logic backfires them. But those are consequences one has to accept.

[Stinksuit]

Also in regards to discussion at page 6, solo roam was always a chess-play with RPS elements, recently someone summ it up very greatly (not in this thread, but somewhere else, i wasnt able to quickly find and quote person's post, sorry) as something like 1) build (absolute priority and where RPS elements start to come into play) -> 2) gcd management (what differs e.g. Second from other roamers so much, this is where RPS elements are fully in play) -> 3) luck (who evades what and when)
What people word as "skill" is actually only 2) in a logic of "action" vs "counteraction" (hence a word chess is used). Lots of this is being briefly described by Pahakukka in his video clips and that makes those clips very great especially for newcomers and for those who wish to learn how to win match-up XYZ

Now to what we discuss and its items. Previous 1) "build" goes into following logic - 1) masteries (fundamental aspect, first priority) -> 2) tactics (incredibly important and situational) 3) renown -> (finetuning) 4) items. Nobody can play out of regen itself, only if 1) + 2) + 3) allows.

So a point is, 1) + 2) + 3) are much bigger issue then 4)
Another point (which is not obvious from what we discuss but if anyone wants i can go into details), each solo roaming viable class can be build and played to hard counter another. But people build themselves universal, because they are roaming, not dueling and here RPS logic backfires them. But those are consequences one has to accept.

Thing is that balancing points 1 to 3 here would mean it affects all the gameplay most likely and we all (or atleast most) know that balance shouldn't be done for solo gameplay. Where as balancing the regen items would mainly if not solely affect solo play.

I mentioned my point earlier that bigger issue to me when it comes to regen is the fact that there is nothing you can really do about it, since heal debuffs dont affect it and in general its just weird for me to see that sov people are using some 36 blues as part of their "bis" set.

I guess you could argue that having these "gimmick" items make the gearing more interesting than just following a "strick" gearing route or it creates more options for end game gear than just everyone using 5 sov and 4 tri.

I feel like this is a topic where people can and will have very different opinions regarding the regen items and how it would be best. And ofcourse the fact that some people just say that its solo stuff so it doesn't matter.

[Farrul]

I am genuinely interested because Ive heard some people say that X class is not playable in solo gameplay if not using regen but then there is people playing that in solo without regen. That's why I'm just wondering what classes "need" it. Personally none of my classes rely on regen (not even my 2h tank).

Few examples I've seen myself is "slayer cant solo roam without regen and just dies to 2 sham dots without it". Then again OP here has videos with solo slayer and choppa without regen.
Usually the follow up is "yeah but the players he kills are just bad". Then again, atleast to me a slayer won't win against "good" shaman in a pure 1v1 no matter the regen he has.

The regen i'm referring to mostly comes naturally with BIS gear ( for 2 tanks). Wihout any regen( 300 range is more than enough) a single passing Dot class will make the life miserable imho for the tank, alternatively addicted to regen pots .

But yes i agree to some extent, for example on my WL back in the days i never used a single piece of regen gear, full glass-cannon roaming and imho that's perfectly viable, although WL is the best mdps vs range due to its mobility.

I won't comment on a Slayer since i've never roamed with one, but MDPS generally has got a gap-closing advantage over a tank, i mentioned it since it is alongside two handed tanks the role on the battlefield that regen gear makes sense on, in the small scale of course.

P.S. None - stealth mdps.

[Stinksuit]

I am genuinely interested because Ive heard some people say that X class is not playable in solo gameplay if not using regen but then there is people playing that in solo without regen. That's why I'm just wondering what classes "need" it. Personally none of my classes rely on regen (not even my 2h tank).

Few examples I've seen myself is "slayer cant solo roam without regen and just dies to 2 sham dots without it". Then again OP here has videos with solo slayer and choppa without regen.
Usually the follow up is "yeah but the players he kills are just bad". Then again, atleast to me a slayer won't win against "good" shaman in a pure 1v1 no matter the regen he has.

The regen i'm referring to mostly comes naturally with BIS gear ( for 2 tanks). Wihout any regen( 300 range is more than enough) a single passing Dot class will make the life miserable imho for the tank, alternatively addicted to regen pots .

But yes i agree to some extent, for example on my WL back in the days i never used a single piece of regen gear, full glass-cannon roaming and imho that's perfectly viable, although WL is the best mdps vs range due to its mobility.

I won't comment on a Slayer since i've never roamed with one, but MDPS generally has got a gap-closing advantage over a tank, i mentioned it since it is alongside two handed tanks the role on the battlefield that regen gear makes sense on, in the small scale of course.

Okay, well regen on tanks is actually something I understand and as you mentioned quite a few of the wl/sov gear pieces have regen in them. Not sure what the exact amount is you can get with just sov+wl but I'm sure its quite a bit. But that again kinda is what I'm talking about. You can use actual end game gear with regen as a tank instead of some gimmick cr36 blue chest..