EU primetime stalemates, heatmaps, and roaming incentives

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wonshot
Posts: 1208

EU primetime stalemates, heatmaps, and roaming incentives

Post#1 » Tue Oct 07, 2025 3:15 am

Hello,

In this topic I will mostly focus on the game-state during EU primetime where both realms see several guilds logging in running guild warbands/groups and the action often being fairly balanced to the point of zonelocks not happening. I am merely focusing on this timeslot as it sees the most action, and most even fighting. NA has it pros and cons, and same for KR primetime.
I will mostly focus on the Heatmaps from the killboard, try to highlight some points of what may drive the guilds/players to behave as they do, and then come with some examples of what could potentially be done if we as a community or the Devs want to try and lead the playerbehaviour as clearly the latest Battleobjecive adjustment didnt change much in terms of the primetime action over the last handful of years.


Below is a small sample size of the last 1-3 weeks of EU primetime Heatmaps, too many praag duplicates to include them all. And any zone that flipped into NA timeslot where a siege then eventually happend and moved the heatmap to a single point at the besieged keep are not included as thats outside of my talking point of "roaming" action and playerbehavior during the "star-building-phase" of a zone lifespan.
https://imgur.com/a/iFTFDWy

1) What do the heatmaps show us?
Pretty much all of the heatmaps paint the same picture, the maps with a close-by enemy warcamp leads to a back'n'forth between warcamps.
The maps with more narrow Eleven bridges and steep valleys make maps feel even more cramped and tiny and forces the action to on few option narrow paths as we see it in DW/Cale. Where as Eatain when on more flat ground will see bad heatmaps between the Warcamps on the center BO.

Bigger rvr lakes like Avelorn, Praag, CW, Reikland have some terrian or structual difficulties but despite being community favorits they still often end up in the Mainroad push-pull fights between warcamps

2) So why is that, what drive players to behave like that?
While rvr hosts everyone. No matter the gear, experience, groupsize or intention one thing seem to be common.
- Players go where they think they can progress, or where they think they can find action

If players assume or know the enemy players will keep shuffling back and forth on the mainroad, you are techincally losing uptime during a guild-event raid if you break off and go to the colder parts of the heatmap in the hopes the enemy will break off too. As the rest of your realm might stay and fight, and you then just lose out on uptime for fighting.
If the progression is the only carrot and incentive to go away from Matyrs in Praag, but you are running on BiS RR80 characters then honestly the main incentive for you to break off, is if the enemy does it first or out of boredom I guess :roll:

The campaign has lost almost all appeal for veterans. The realm pride is shrinking year by year with no further content to staying on one main character and working with your realm, instead majority now is crossrealming(not winnerjoining! dont get them mixed up) to simply get action and variety. So barely any guilds are making events to logging on for the evening to push a zone and collect bags or celebrate the campaign progression.
So I think its important to look and understand the playerbehaviour of those that drive the action and Can push the zones if they commit and chose to do so.

3) How do we do that then?
The brutal honest answer is to shift away from "kills" being the succes messurement if this game wants to continue being a Campaign driven gamemode. Ingame scenario scoreboards was a perfect addition, Killboard served as a fun thing. But the only thing that motivates players right after a guild event is uploading the screenshots of the stats of kills, healing, protection and in the grand sceme of things it didnt matter at all what zone was fought over as it was just the random playground for the night.

- How about if a road is being used too often and by too many, the roads becoming in poor condition and you will move slower by constantly taking the same path.
- How about if BOs were locked, and each realm could see how many enemies were attacking a BO by reintroducing BO-guards that doesnt give +combat and morale gain advantage. Capping a BO locks it, but it also shows how many are on a BO by having the BO claimed by a guild/alliance and they get "guard-spam" of how many attackers are in the area (daoc/live aor mechanic)
- How about Local-AAO while fighting on BOs to better relfect Difficulty/reward. So if you fight on a BO with 24 and they send 48 against you, you would get double the rewards for the few kills you might make. And they would get less because it was an easier fight for them by outnumbering you.
- How about Kills not counting on Killboard/scenario scoreboard if you dont hold atleast two of the new 20min Battleobjective buffs. Now watch all the guilds roam like crazy lol, and we didnt even have to touch on rewards we just had to pressure the "success messurement"

Not all zones are equal. Some have really poor layout, bad Warcamp placements, imballanced keep/BO placement. But atleast can we do SOMETHING about RvR after its been neglected and the main gamemode of this server is in a declining state.
In the past we had experimental phases with Healers, with aoe cap. Why is it that we dont see any real attempt on improving the MAIN thing this game has to offer? Keeps and zonelocks also need attention but lets take one step at a time and work on the rvr zones while they are in the star-building phase.

Thanks for reading
Bombling 93BW
Ping me when Battleobjectives are becoming meaningful to the oRvR game as an incentive & tool to spread out the players and the action.

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Nameless
Posts: 1480

Re: EU primetime stalemates, heatmaps, and roaming incentives

Post#2 » Tue Oct 07, 2025 3:38 am

BOs importance should play the disperse role. As you said the lockout mechanic from early live version combined with aao should be optimal imo. Make the lock timer connected with aao and make BO importance matters more.

On early live we were moving long way around pve only to reach some far located BO to ninja lock it and slow the enemy zone progression. And even if zerged if you secured the BO lock it somehow were worth it
Mostly harmless

K8P & Norn - guild Orz

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Aethilmar
Posts: 777

Re: EU primetime stalemates, heatmaps, and roaming incentives

Post#3 » Tue Oct 07, 2025 4:56 am

Nameless wrote: Tue Oct 07, 2025 3:38 am BOs importance should play the disperse role. As you said the lockout mechanic from early live version combined with aao should be optimal imo. Make the lock timer connected with aao and make BO importance matters more.

On early live we were moving long way around pve only to reach some far located BO to ninja lock it and slow the enemy zone progression. And even if zerged if you secured the BO lock it somehow were worth it
+1

Did the same. It was a lot of fun when you were heavily outnumbered.

I will note that they moved away from the lock timers though because it created another kind of stalemate where a coordinated group could keep a zone from locking if they wanted to do so. That said, whatever it takes to break up the zerg a bit I'm for it.
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Nameless
Posts: 1480

Re: EU primetime stalemates, heatmaps, and roaming incentives

Post#4 » Tue Oct 07, 2025 9:33 am

Aethilmar wrote: Tue Oct 07, 2025 4:56 am
Nameless wrote: Tue Oct 07, 2025 3:38 am BOs importance should play the disperse role. As you said the lockout mechanic from early live version combined with aao should be optimal imo. Make the lock timer connected with aao and make BO importance matters more.

On early live we were moving long way around pve only to reach some far located BO to ninja lock it and slow the enemy zone progression. And even if zerged if you secured the BO lock it somehow were worth it
+1

Did the same. It was a lot of fun when you were heavily outnumbered.

I will note that they moved away from the lock timers though because it created another kind of stalemate where a coordinated group could keep a zone from locking if they wanted to do so. That said, whatever it takes to break up the zerg a bit I'm for it.
Back then the zone locking was much more complicated involving doing pqs, winning scens associated with the zone and taking bos and keep. So was total stalemate.
Imo the bo lock element is not enough to recreate that situation, now bos are trivial, back then being zerged while try to hold last 3 sec before securing lock was huge adrenaline rush and quite fun experience
Mostly harmless

K8P & Norn - guild Orz

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Hazmy
Former Staff
Posts: 391

Re: EU primetime stalemates, heatmaps, and roaming incentives

Post#5 » Tue Oct 07, 2025 11:53 am

I don't think any tricks or illusionary changes will make BOs any more important - just like we could see it from the last RvR change. No one cares about BOs still.

If you want to make BOs important, then quite simply the solution is to make BOs important.

In what way? I am currently biased as I just posted my own idea about it few days ago - but I would just enable that if you hold all 4 BOs in a zone where you have a 3 Star Keep, you can lock the zone.

That would instantly create pressure to hold BOs because now you can lock the zone away from the enemy faction and push the Lakes and the Campaign with them. It would also open up opportunities for solo and small-scale players to create their own content on Objectives and have meaningful support and presence in RvR, while Warbands duke it out based on which BOs is the hotspot at the time.

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nebelwerfer
Posts: 692

Re: EU primetime stalemates, heatmaps, and roaming incentives

Post#6 » Tue Oct 07, 2025 12:46 pm

Nameless wrote: Tue Oct 07, 2025 9:33 am
Aethilmar wrote: Tue Oct 07, 2025 4:56 am
Nameless wrote: Tue Oct 07, 2025 3:38 am BOs importance should play the disperse role. As you said the lockout mechanic from early live version combined with aao should be optimal imo. Make the lock timer connected with aao and make BO importance matters more.

On early live we were moving long way around pve only to reach some far located BO to ninja lock it and slow the enemy zone progression. And even if zerged if you secured the BO lock it somehow were worth it
+1

Did the same. It was a lot of fun when you were heavily outnumbered.

I will note that they moved away from the lock timers though because it created another kind of stalemate where a coordinated group could keep a zone from locking if they wanted to do so. That said, whatever it takes to break up the zerg a bit I'm for it.
Back then the zone locking was much more complicated involving doing pqs, winning scens associated with the zone and taking bos and keep. So was total stalemate.
Imo the bo lock element is not enough to recreate that situation, now bos are trivial, back then being zerged while try to hold last 3 sec before securing lock was huge adrenaline rush and quite fun experience
And there was a public loot roll related to the zonelock, it was quite cool to win bags. Definetly part of the excitement and fun I think.

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Bozzax
Posts: 2672

Re: EU primetime stalemates, heatmaps, and roaming incentives

Post#7 » Tue Oct 07, 2025 3:31 pm

Nameless wrote: Tue Oct 07, 2025 3:38 am BOs importance should play the disperse role. As you said the lockout mechanic from early live version combined with aao should be optimal imo. Make the lock timer connected with aao and make BO importance matters more.

On early live we were moving long way around pve only to reach some far located BO to ninja lock it and slow the enemy zone progression. And even if zerged if you secured the BO lock it somehow were worth it
Best times of war with zone domination 🔒
Crazy fact the bos furthest away was most contested. Total flip vs todays mid bo back and forth and Blob couldn’t blob
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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Grock
Posts: 942

Re: EU primetime stalemates, heatmaps, and roaming incentives

Post#8 » Tue Oct 07, 2025 4:00 pm

Gonna copy my post from last month here:

TL;DR: This is a level design issue. Respawn poinst should not be closer to each other than to Battle Objective or similar mechanics. In addition BOs should have lockouts to create a more focused opportunity window which will draw players to contest them, instead of being flipped back and forth at no cost.

The problem of warcamp-to-warcamp blob rolling is less to do with population imbalance or reward structure and more with the level design of the zones.

The central motivation of everyone playing this game is to find other players to fight with.
Its a PvP combat game, its not a strategy, survival or an exploration game.

Battle Objectives exist to give players a sense of direction as to where to find an enemy to fight. When done properly they congregate players in specific areas at specific times and create opportunities for good figths.
But the level design is also important. BOs should be fun to fight at, they should offer interesting tactical options, instead they are either a random flag in an open field, or more annoying than interesting with things like random debris to get stuck in, random LoS interruptions, interactibles that get in the way of target selection (Manor gates in Praag) and so on.

But unfortunately In most zones Warcamps are closer to each other than to other objectives.
Think of Troll Country as the worst example, if you want to find enemies to fight the other warcamp is less than a minute away, meanwhile if you go to Greystone Keep you will literally be moving away from enemies and the whole ride will take five times longer.

This means that BOs do not fulfill their function of being a landmark for players to congregate at, because opposing Warcamp is an even better, closer and more reliable option to find a fight, hence we get these back and forth waves between warcamps unless there's a couple of organized warbands with leaders that specifically go out of their way to have more interesting movement.

The layout of RvR lakes should be closer to what you get on maps like Black Crag, Thunder Mountain or Dragonwake - warcamps should be located further away from each other than any other two points of interest.
The BOs should be fair distance from WCs as well to avoid sitautions like TC Monastery of Morr, but at the same time shouldn't be too far from the rest to avoid being ignored like Gromril Kruk.

Without straight up reshaping whole zones, a slight improvement could be made by adding lockout timers on BOs. It will create a narrow window of opportunity where BO can be attacked and flipped, that would concentrate players' attention and interest, and cause players to be more likely to arrive there and engage in a fight.
This used to be how things worked in the past and it was working pretty well. This is also how things work currently in Guild Wars 2, and it works well.

Another option to look for is to relocate Warcamps in the worst offending maps like TC/Ostland or Praag.
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dasparkylad
Posts: 19

Re: EU primetime stalemates, heatmaps, and roaming incentives

Post#9 » Tue Oct 07, 2025 5:22 pm

I'd be up for trying this and other suggestions people have made as SOMETHING needs to be done. Right now stalemates are so bad that if you try to spawn a ram to stop the circling 1 BO or WC blobbing back and forth you'll actively be shouted at for "ruining the game" as people have just accepted most of the time its impossible to actually lock a zone as there isn't a big enough zerg on 1 side.

If the only way to win is to just have a bigger zerg then somebody is completely fundamentally broken and needs fixing.

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wonshot
Posts: 1208

Re: EU primetime stalemates, heatmaps, and roaming incentives

Post#10 » Tue Oct 07, 2025 7:27 pm

dasparkylad wrote: Tue Oct 07, 2025 5:22 pm I'd be up for trying this and other suggestions people have made as SOMETHING needs to be done.
Agreed Im at the point where I just wish to see the Devs doing SOMETHING to show they acknowledge the situation or are actively thinking about if this can be tackled. But as a normal community member we do get the impression that Heatmaps are not being looked at. That SC rework that was "almost done" got dropped without us getting a word about why or when. And everything just seems stale and neglected, apart from pve which is producing amazing products. But in an RvR game!
dasparkylad wrote: Tue Oct 07, 2025 5:22 pm Right now stalemates are so bad that if you try to spawn a ram to stop the circling 1 BO or WC blobbing back and forth
Which is in what I would call Stage2 of a zonelifespan,
Step1: building stars fase. Where keeps grow in rank and players in the map figure out if they are in enough advantage to push the action into a siege situation
Step2: Siege. The dominant realm gives the weaker side a chance to rally and get defensive advantages at a keep with narrow entry points, oil showers and chokepoints.
Step3: Break the siege or defend succesfully. Mostly M4 vs Oil timer in funnel situations.
Step4: Lord dies and now capture the BOs (the one time where all BOs are actively fought over and what other phases of the zone span should be like.
Step5: Zonelocked or Back to Step1 if succesfully retake or hold the ruin keep.

The whole Fake ramming is something I've never understood, yes it can break up a stale fight but if it doesnt lead to a real siege then all you do is pausing the fighting and uptime the guilds are getting at pressing buttons on their characters. Reason why many guilds seemingly dont care for sieges these days is because they are dull and you barely do anything. Four tanks play a minigame and you sit watchdog duty preventing them getting swarmed from the walls. For guilds with X hours or planned game-night activity this is often deemed a waste of uptime by attending a siege when you could be fighting. The point of this topic is, how do we get the players to fight over Battle objectives in stage1 of a zone. Then after that we can look at the siege stage, which also needs desperate attention! (Hazmy's fantastic topic!)
Bombling 93BW
Ping me when Battleobjectives are becoming meaningful to the oRvR game as an incentive & tool to spread out the players and the action.

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