Scenario rework suggestions

[saupreusse]

Guards have always felt like a band aid solution, insta kill untouchable NPCs to punish aggression in a pvp game is asinine and way too passive. No one likes sitting in their spawn waiting for the sc to end and no one likes a passive enemy that sits in safety and refuses to engage, in both cases you waited in queue and got less rewards/gameplay out of it then you wanted and in both cases guards dont solve the issue (if anything it encourages it). The respawning team should just get a more substantial offensive buff with the existing one way barriers, more similar to what the warcamp buff gives you, that way you have to actually leave the spawn and play the game to take advantage of it.

Barriers are the reason for 'passive' behaviour where one side gets too afraid to even take one step outside because they don't want to get mindlessly slaughtered. So they just cast a surrender vote and be done with it. A warcamp buff only works in combination with guards, because a simple buff won't encourage people to facetank an overwhelmingly powerful enemy. Barriers mean that every healer and range dps on the underdog side has to get into melee range with the enemy, which is a horrible starting position for a comeback, even if you get a strong offensive buff.

Guards worked absolutely fine in scenarios for 15 years, and the barriers fixed a non existent problem that only really plays a role in ranked scenarios, which in itself is a dead gamemode. So the removal of guards made some ranked players happy, while the average joe now suffers the consequences.

Warcamps work just fine im RvR, and In my opinion these are the best implementation for scenarios too. They have guards, act as a safe zone and you get a warcamp buff if the enemy feels like spawncamping.

Edit:
And no, it is not asinine to retreat to a safe zone if you stand no chance. It is asinine to think you should be able to play overly aggressive and abuse a bad/ unfair matchup unrestricted, thereby punishing the losing side more than is necessary, so they won't queue again.

[Rydiak]

Well said, Saupreusse.

[filewulf]

Guards have always felt like a band aid solution, insta kill untouchable NPCs to punish aggression in a pvp game is asinine and way too passive. No one likes sitting in their spawn waiting for the sc to end and no one likes a passive enemy that sits in safety and refuses to engage, in both cases you waited in queue and got less rewards/gameplay out of it then you wanted and in both cases guards dont solve the issue (if anything it encourages it). The respawning team should just get a more substantial offensive buff with the existing one way barriers, more similar to what the warcamp buff gives you, that way you have to actually leave the spawn and play the game to take advantage of it.

<quote>

Lol I played back when guards were in scenarios and people went afk in spawn just as much if not more, why pretend that they are some magical cure-all solution when they weren't? If people got a buff strong enough that they knew they could push out of spawn and get even 1 kill they would absolutely take it, even if they weren't able to transition that into a full comeback from there. If the winning team is really standing in melee range from the barrier then the losing teams dps should be able to just walk out and shred them to punish it, which forces them back to more equal footing while encouraging active play from the losing side.

P.S. Why are people so afraid to die in this game, especially in a scenario where you don't even have to pay off wounds? There's no "punishment" for dying, yet some people are so mortified by some sort of imaginary consequence.

[Hazmy]

It's very hard to argue the pros and cons of the Scenario System in the current state of RoR since the average player skill has plummeted so hard that you can't judge them objectively.

The mechanics are barely being used.

The real problem is that Scenarios and frankly RvR needs to be revamped in a way that encourages players again to try improving, over trying to play the system or just mash buttons brainlessly - or in the case of Scenarios, completely forget the gamemode exists.

Scenarios NEED to encourage the want to learn in players, in a healthy and realistic manner, especially for new players. Currently getting stomped by pre-mades and veterans without even knowing why is not doing that, and Barriers or even reverting it back to Guards is probably not enough either.

Once Scenarios will offer a healthy training ground, the average skill level will also rise. But it will be a long and slow process.

[shoelessHN]

It's very hard to argue the pros and cons of the Scenario System in the current state of RoR since the average player skill has plummeted so hard that you can't judge them objectively.

The mechanics are barely being used.

The real problem is that Scenarios and frankly RvR needs to be revamped in a way that encourages players again to try improving, over trying to play the system or just mash buttons brainlessly - or in the case of Scenarios, completely forget the gamemode exists.

Scenarios NEED to encourage the want to learn in players, in a healthy and realistic manner, especially for new players. Currently getting stomped by pre-mades and veterans without even knowing why is not doing that, and Barriers or even reverting it back to Guards is probably not enough either.

Once Scenarios will offer a healthy training ground, the average skill level will also rise. But it will be a long and slow process.

Maps are too small and TTK is too high for meaningful skirmishes in sc once you lose the initial fight.

In T4, one side just spawn camps other and it's over. Any organized group dominates pugs/no comms teams.
T2 has a little more variety as people tend to just run out and skirmish despite the odds. That ends really quick once they hit t4. No wonder it's discouraging.

And why would people leave the spawn? You cannot kill anything with TTK so high, BOs are pointless. BOs offer zero rewards for capping and take far too long for solo/duos to flip. Enemy teams can cover the map and stop you before BO ever flips regardless. The old click to cap flags were better, non-linear sc setups were (are) better.

Multiple years in a row of this not being addressed has now led to far too many 11min surrenders. New/under-geared players either get slapped around for 4mins, or they get carried and do nothing for 4 mins for a win. They won't improve (skill wise) regardless of which side they're on.

[saupreusse]

Guards have always felt like a band aid solution, insta kill untouchable NPCs to punish aggression in a pvp game is asinine and way too passive. No one likes sitting in their spawn waiting for the sc to end and no one likes a passive enemy that sits in safety and refuses to engage, in both cases you waited in queue and got less rewards/gameplay out of it then you wanted and in both cases guards dont solve the issue (if anything it encourages it). The respawning team should just get a more substantial offensive buff with the existing one way barriers, more similar to what the warcamp buff gives you, that way you have to actually leave the spawn and play the game to take advantage of it.

<quote>

Lol I played back when guards were in scenarios and people went afk in spawn just as much if not more, why pretend that they are some magical cure-all solution when they weren't? If people got a buff strong enough that they knew they could push out of spawn and get even 1 kill they would absolutely take it, even if they weren't able to transition that into a full comeback from there. If the winning team is really standing in melee range from the barrier then the losing teams dps should be able to just walk out and shred them to punish it, which forces them back to more equal footing while encouraging active play from the losing side.

P.S. Why are people so afraid to die in this game, especially in a scenario where you don't even have to pay off wounds? There's no "punishment" for dying, yet some people are so mortified by some sort of imaginary consequence.

I dont think guards are a magical cure all solution and i never said that. It takes a lot more than just guards to make scenarios more enjoyable and lively.

In practice it does not work like you say it would. People get really careful when they get stomped and they won:t fight the fights close to the barrier. Like you said: they are too afraid to die again. And this cant be changed, so we have to fix the system, not the player.

[Endari]

In practice it does not work like you say it would. People get really careful when they get stomped and they won:t fight the fights close to the barrier. Like you said: they are too afraid to die again. And this cant be changed, so we have to fix the system, not the player.

Ugh I hate this people are AfRaiD to die garbage. It's not fear, it's that they don't want to feed a premade. The current SC "matchmaking" system is setup either intentionally(it is) or not to match premades against pugs so they can maximize their gains and every change that has been made is to make sure the pugs are forced to either feed the machine or just quit. I don't know if the devs did this on their own or have been led astray by those who they take advice from but this is the reality of what has been in place for years. Again this is a blatant dev sponsored system to feed premades, a nice work around so they don't get called out for kill trading.

[saupreusse]

In practice it does not work like you say it would. People get really careful when they get stomped and they won:t fight the fights close to the barrier. Like you said: they are too afraid to die again. And this cant be changed, so we have to fix the system, not the player.

Ugh I hate this people are AfRaiD to die garbage. It's not fear, it's that they don't want to feed a premade. The current SC "matchmaking" system is setup either intentionally(it is) or not to match premades against pugs so they can maximize their gains and every change that has been made is to make sure the pugs are forced to either feed the machine or just quit. I don't know if the devs did this on their own or have been led astray by those who they take advice from but this is the reality of what has been in place for years. Again this is a blatant dev sponsored system to feed premades, a nice work around so they don't get called out for kill trading.

Same thing, different color.
Doesn't matter if they are too afraid to die or too afraid to feed. The outcome is the same.

[Endari]

Same thing, different color.
Doesn't matter if they are too afraid to die or too afraid to feed. The outcome is the same.

Of course it matters, one is the games problem(feeding) the other is a player problem(AfRaiD!) You can fix game problems while there is nothing to do to fix the players. Also the only people afraid to die in this game are the killboard warriors aka pre-mades.

[saupreusse]

Same thing, different color.
Doesn't matter if they are too afraid to die or too afraid to feed. The outcome is the same.

Of course it matters, one is the games problem(feeding) the other is a player problem(AfRaiD!) You can fix game problems while there is nothing to do to fix the players. Also the only people afraid to die in this game are the killboard warriors aka pre-mades.

At this point we are only speculating. Not to further derail the discussion: I agree with you that only replacing barriers with guards won't fix the game mode, and I agree that playing objectives should be just as rewarding as killing. Overall, I also agree with what hazmy said, but ill also add my own two cents:

Currently there simply is no meaning in all of it. There is no reason to win an rvr zone or a scenario. The only driving factor is killing - in both game modes. Most people would rather zerg than actually advance the campaign or play scenario objectives. What players really need is a goal.

And ofc in order to be enjoyable, lets also update the sc queueing system.